Toll Roads in Adelaide

[ChillyPhilly]

Those outer 'burbs are far more suitable for childless couples, or even single homeowners. More time spent commuting, less time that could be spent with the family.

Unfortunately, this is the case with areas north of Elizabeth, particularly those generic Legoland developments up north out at Andrews Farm.

[Aidan]

Those outer 'burbs are far more suitable for childless couples, or even single homeowners. More time spent commuting, less time that could be spent with the family.

Unfortunately, this is the case with areas north of Elizabeth, particularly those generic Legoland developments up north out at Andrews Farm.

Is that based on evidence? Or just speculation?

The proportion of people working in the City is lower in the outer suburbs.

[muzzamo]

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/opin ... 6420422331

[AtD]

I still find your example 'offensive' because you are ading an additional cost to people who can least afford it. That person probably lives in Aldinga, because they can't afford to live anywhere else. By adding a $100 week tax to them, you would also be reducing their ability for employment as there is nowhere near the same amount of available jobs in the 'sticks' compared to the CBD.

I think we both have the same aim of reducing sprawl, however I don't think punishing people for living in the outer suburbs is the answer, as the problems created by sprawl were not caused by those people you want to punish. Why not introduce incentives to live closer to the CBD instead? i.e. like what the government has done in eliminating stamp duty for CBD apartments

Incentives are incentives whether they're fines or subsidies. The stamp duty cut is being 'paid' for by everyone else because the government will have to make up the revenue elsewhere.

Stamp duty is 2%. Offer a 1% discount in the city. Nice incentive to move into the city!

Stamp duty is 1%. Place a 1% surchage on the suburbs. Punishing people who can't afford to live in the city!

Obviously they're both the same thing spun differently.

[ChillyPhilly]

Those outer 'burbs are far more suitable for childless couples, or even single homeowners. More time spent commuting, less time that could be spent with the family.

Unfortunately, this is the case with areas north of Elizabeth, particularly those generic Legoland developments up north out at Andrews Farm.

Is that based on evidence? Or just speculation?

The proportion of people working in the City is lower in the outer suburbs.

Based on evidence. Intelligent, logical thinking will also bring this up.

You are correct; there's this perception here in Adelaide that most jobs are concentrated in the CBD. In fact, just 15% of the metropolitan area's total jobs are based in the central business district. Always found that interesting.

[tanner1987]

I'm all for Toll Roads, for new developments.

eg. completing South Road
Port Road freeway
Ring Route improvements

If not to get new infrastructure, but to put others off using them...freeing them up for me

Some of the toll costs would be offset in vehicle running cost savings also.

[Aidan]

I'm all for Toll Roads, for new developments.

eg. completing South Road
Port Road freeway
Ring Route improvements

If not to get new infrastructure, but to put others off using them...freeing them up for me

Some of the toll costs would be offset in vehicle running cost savings also.

Toll are much less controversial for new roads than existing ones, but as South Road already exists, few would regard it as enough of a new development to justify tolls. Likewise with the ring route. As for Port Road, do you really want to make it quicker to drive into the City on a route closely parallelled by a railway?

[Waewick]

I'm all for Toll Roads, for new developments.

eg. completing South Road
Port Road freeway
Ring Route improvements

If not to get new infrastructure, but to put others off using them...freeing them up for me

Some of the toll costs would be offset in vehicle running cost savings also.

Toll are much less controversial for new roads than existing ones, but as South Road already exists, few would regard it as enough of a new development to justify tolls. Likewise with the ring route. As for Port Road, do you really want to make it quicker to drive into the City on a route closely parallelled by a railway?

If I was a pollie (which I am not) in order to commence negotions regarding a toll road I would approach the transport industry with a simple few questions

where do you want a road to improve inefficiencies
what speed would you like to see on this road
how much would you be willing to pay for it.

get an idea of this and you can get the first toll road going.

after that, once people see the benefits it will be a lot simplier - the important part being these roads need to have benefits over and above standard roads (i.e improved speed limits, road safety road consistency)

[Westside]

If I was a pollie (which I am not) in order to commence negotions regarding a toll road I would approach the transport industry with a simple few questions

where do you want a road to improve inefficiencies
what speed would you like to see on this road
how much would you be willing to pay for it.

get an idea of this and you can get the first toll road going.

after that, once people see the benefits it will be a lot simplier - the important part being these roads need to have benefits over and above standard roads (i.e improved speed limits, road safety road consistency)

The idea is not to go hunting for toll roads but to look at where extra investment is required for new infrastructure and to determine if a 'user pays' (ie tolls) investment will enable the project to be delivered. No one will use a tolled ring route, they would just drive through the city instead. Port road is one of SAs better main roads as it is. The only possibility of those just mentioned would be South road, but that would only work if there is a significant advantage (ie time, therefore on road costs) for the motorists. There would still be the need for the alternative of a toll free surface road for the journeys that do not travel the length of the route.

[[Shuz]]

In order to create a non-stop 'South Road' that they will need to build a tunnel somewhere along the route and this will have to be tolled. Road tunnels these days cost somewhere in the magnitude of $600m per kilometre of twin bored tunnels. It's no cheap exercise and the Government and/or private investors will be looking to recoup their investment in order to pay it off, and not rely on 'increased ecomonic benefit to the State/City.'

Now, the wait begins... It's not a matter of if, but when.

I'd highly doubt that the proposed Northern Connector project will be tolled. It would be ludicrous to allow motorists to use the Northern Expressway for free, then pay tolls for the Northern Connector, then ride the Superway for free, when that exact same trip, taken via Port Wakefield Road would take only 5 minutes longer, and still takes you to your destination just as effectively. Even if the Northern Connector is tolled, I'd bet my bottom dollar this would extend to the Expressway as well. No Government dare would revert an existing 'free' road into toll roads and the Northern Expressway is probably the only road which you could get away with it.

A future Government will have to address the increasing traffic congestion from the North-Eastern suburbs, as this will only particularly worsen come 2020/2030. Perhaps a reinstated proposal for a tolled Modbury Freeway?

[DM8]

Perhaps a reinstated proposal for a tolled Modbury Freeway?

Now that I'd love to see. With the OBahn retained in the median.
I'd pay a toll for that!

[Waewick]

having a think about it.

I reckon there is an argument for a toll on existing roadways.

the infrastrucutre has already been put in place so the levy is a chanrge for mainteance and upgrades where required.

the problem is it would require faith in the governmnet that the monies would remain set aside for this purpose and this purpose alone - something I doubt will happen.

an example would be say - Glen Osmond Road - we all start paying a toll which will go towards upgrade and eventual underpass (I know dreaming) the monies going into an account to be used when there is enough - obviously hoping that the growth of the fund outgrows that of inflation costs.

[claybro]

Seems to me that here in SA, we pfaff around the edge of things, do some required upgrades, bit by bit trying not to offend special interest groups etc and end up with a poor, half baked result in the end that suits no-one. Adelaide is an elongated metropolitan area, very large even by world standards. By 2030 there will be some 1.7 million people living in a thin coastal strip from Pt Wakefield to Victor Harbour. Sooner or later a Freeway standard transport route will be required to cover this entire length. What do we get from our govenment and planners? -"plans for a non stop south road from Virginia to Darlington (whatever that means). Whatever you do...dont frighten the horses by mentioning the word FREEWAY. We'll just build a few underpassess, over passes but still call it "South Road" so as people dont feel disconnected with their neighbours across the road in Mile End, Thebarton or wherever. NEWSFLASH South Road has been a noisy polluted busy suburban barrier for 30 years now. It is down right dangerous to pedestrians and yet we still persist like it is some sort of suburban "high street" with shops etc along its length. Lets just plan a 6 lane freeway with suitable plantings and noise reduction along the sides. Separation from neighbouring roads, housing etc, bulldose one side at least. Build the damn thing and toll it, in sections from Pt Wakefield to Victor. If motorists wish to drive North/South without toll let them use Marion Road, Tapleys Hill Road, Port/Churchill rds etc. and let the rest of us get on with it.

[Aidan]

In order to create a non-stop 'South Road' that they will need to build a tunnel somewhere along the route and this will have to be tolled.

Wrong on both counts! Tunnels are an option, but not the only option. And if there's a short tunnel (such as the one proposed for the section that crosses Grange Road, Port Road and the Outer Harbour Line) it would probably not be worth tolling.

Road tunnels these days cost somewhere in the magnitude of $600m per kilometre of twin bored tunnels. It's no cheap exercise and the Government and/or private investors will be looking to recoup their investment in order to pay it off, and not rely on 'increased ecomonic benefit to the State/City.'

Now, the wait begins... It's not a matter of if, but when.

I'd highly doubt that the proposed Northern Connector project will be tolled. It would be ludicrous to allow motorists to use the Northern Expressway for free, then pay tolls for the Northern Connector, then ride the Superway for free, when that exact same trip, taken via Port Wakefield Road would take only 5 minutes longer, and still takes you to your destination just as effectively.

But for how much longer will the difference only be 5 minutes? Traffic levels on Port Wakefield Road are rising quickly.

Even if the Northern Connector is tolled, I'd bet my bottom dollar this would extend to the Expressway as well. No Government dare would revert an existing 'free' road into toll roads and the Northern Expressway is probably the only road which you could get away with it.

Even if they could get away with it, you've contradicted yourself, and I doubt any government would want to take the political risk.

A future Government will have to address the increasing traffic congestion from the North-Eastern suburbs, as this will only particularly worsen come 2020/2030. Perhaps a reinstated proposal for a tolled Modbury Freeway?

Why would it particularly worsen in that timespan?

Which traffic are you referring to? A radial freeway would increase the number of cars on the road, so building one will actually worsen congestion on perpendicular routes. Keep in mind that trucks are more likely to be running E-W. Grade separation of Montague Road (which the MATS Plan envisaged as an expressway) or Grand Junction Road is a possibility, but if it's done at all it's likely to be a gradual process.

The best thing that could be done to address congestion in the NE is to improve the O-bahn. There's potential for service improvements, station improvements and extensions.

[Hooligan]

the infrastrucutre has already been put in place so the levy is a chanrge for mainteance and upgrades where required.

We already have a levy for that, it's called vehicle registration.