Toll Roads in Adelaide

[claybro]

Seems to me that here in SA, we pfaff around the edge of things, do some required upgrades, bit by bit trying not to offend special interest groups etc and end up with a poor, half baked result in the end that suits no-one. Adelaide is an elongated metropolitan area, very large even by world standards. By 2030 there will be some 1.7 million people living in a thin coastal strip from Pt Wakefield to Victor Harbour. Sooner or later a Freeway standard transport route will be required to cover this entire length. What do we get from our govenment and planners? -"plans for a non stop south road from Virginia to Darlington (whatever that means). Whatever you do...dont frighten the horses by mentioning the word FREEWAY. We'll just build a few underpassess, over passes but still call it "South Road" so as people dont feel disconnected with their neighbours across the road in Mile End, Thebarton or wherever. NEWSFLASH South Road has been a noisy polluted busy suburban barrier for 30 years now. It is down right dangerous to pedestrians and yet we still persist like it is some sort of suburban "high street" with shops etc along its length. Lets just plan a 6 lane freeway with suitable plantings and noise reduction along the sides. Separation from neighbouring roads, housing etc, bulldose one side at least. Build the damn thing and toll it, in sections from Pt Wakefield to Victor. If motorists wish to drive North/South without toll let them use Marion Road, Tapleys Hill Road, Port/Churchill rds etc. and let the rest of us get on with it.

the infrastrucutre has already been put in place so the levy is a chanrge for mainteance and upgrades where required.

We already have a levy for that, it's called vehicle registration.

So work out how much it will cost, and charge registraion accordingly

[claybro]

About 30 years ago in Perth (pre the curent mining boom) the Western Australian government planned as system of freeways (not unlike our MATS plan at the time) the funding for this was from memory a 2cent per litre tax or "shadow toll" as i'ts known. The proceeds from this tax went directly to the freeway construction and public transport infastructure. Perth now has one of the most modern freeway and public transport systems in Australia and is considered best practice in the the world. Perth in the 60's/70,s was not that different to Adelaide today.

[Aidan]

Seems to me that here in SA, we pfaff around the edge of things, do some required upgrades, bit by bit trying not to offend special interest groups etc and end up with a poor, half baked result in the end that suits no-one. Adelaide is an elongated metropolitan area, very large even by world standards. By 2030 there will be some 1.7 million people living in a thin coastal strip from Pt Wakefield to Victor Harbour. Sooner or later a Freeway standard transport route will be required to cover this entire length.

Required for what purpose? And what alternatives have you considered?

What do we get from our govenment and planners? -"plans for a non stop south road from Virginia to Darlington (whatever that means). Whatever you do...dont frighten the horses by mentioning the word FREEWAY. We'll just build a few underpassess, over passes but still call it "South Road" so as people dont feel disconnected with their neighbours across the road in Mile End, Thebarton or wherever. NEWSFLASH South Road has been a noisy polluted busy suburban barrier for 30 years now. It is down right dangerous to pedestrians and yet we still persist like it is some sort of suburban "high street" with shops etc along its length.

I don't think South Rosd's any more dangerous than Unley Road - in fact in the middle of the day South Road's easier to cross than Unley Road, because South Road has a median strip. And it does also have a lot of shops. Passing trade and easy access are good for business profitability and you want to destroy both!

It's not the word FREEWAY we object to, it's the loss of access (both the severing of many roads and the loss of local bus servives) plus all the noise and pollution that are likely to be much worse from a freeway than from an urban arterial.

Lets just plan a 6 lane freeway with suitable plantings and noise reduction along the sides. Separation from neighbouring roads, housing etc, bulldose one side at least. Build the damn thing and toll it, in sections from Pt Wakefield to Victor. If motorists wish to drive North/South without toll let them use Marion Road, Tapleys Hill Road, Port/Churchill rds etc. and let the rest of us get on with it.

A pricetag of many billion, yet leaving many people worse off than doing nothing.

About 30 years ago in Perth (pre the curent mining boom) the Western Australian government planned as system of freeways (not unlike our MATS plan at the time)

I think your timing's a bit off. 30 years ago in Adelaide the MATS Plan was long dead. 30 years ago in Perth, though they were extending theipr railways they were finding them inadequate for the traffic volumes, and they were regretting having neglected their suburban railways.

the funding for this was from memory a 2cent per litre tax or "shadow toll" as i'ts known.

That's not a shadow toll, that's a levy. A shadow toll is where the government pays the road operator according to the amount of traffic using the road.

The proceeds from this tax went directly to the freeway construction and public transport infastructure. Perth now has one of the most modern freeway and public transport systems in Australia and is considered best practice in the the world. Perth in the 60's/70,s was not that different to Adelaide today.

The difference being that we can learn from their mistakes!

[claybro]

The main point of my rant being, wheather we like to acknowledge it or not Adelaide now has the most disfunctional road system in Australia. It also has about the worst rail system in Australia and the bus system is now held ransom to the conjested suburban road network. The federal govenrment has already indicated that future funding to SA roads will be limited unless we consider tolls. South Road has become the route of choice for our major transport and the state alone cannot afford to build it to any decent standard. Once South road is upgraded to a "non Stop" thouroughfare, it will not be possible to have it lined with retail/mechanics/ crash repairs etc as you cannot have decent travel flow held up by rubberneckers looking for Cheap as chips or Pet Stop or ":where is number 1046?" etc etc. it will then become a mecca for rear end collisions, cars up on footpaths etc. and be worse than useless as a major free flowing route. Public transport although it has it's place does not allow for movement of freight/ mail/ retail etc. and it is the trucks, buses light trucks ,delvivery drivers that will need this corridor certainly within the next 20 years. Call it a toll/ shadow tax/ levy / rego / call it daylight robbery if you like...the fact is we need to start funding it now as every other city in Australia has done for the last 20 years.

[Aidan]

The main point of my rant being, wheather we like to acknowledge it or not Adelaide now has the most disfunctional road system in Australia.

And yet it's functioned pretty well so far.

It also has about the worst rail system in Australia and the bus system is now held ransom to the conjested suburban road network.

At last you've hit the nail on the head. Making the rail system more useful is s better use of resources than building overengineered roads, and has the potential to reduce road congestion more.

The federal govenrment has already indicated that future funding to SA roads will be limited unless we consider tolls.

And we should consider tolls where appropriate, such as on the Northern Connector.

I'm not against building tollways. Earlier in this thread I proposed six of them. It's just that I think there are other things that better meet our current needs.

South Road has become the route of choice for our major transport and the state alone cannot afford to build it to any decent standard. Once South road is upgraded to a "non Stop" thouroughfare, it will not be possible to have it lined with retail/mechanics/ crash repairs etc as you cannot have decent travel flow held up by rubberneckers looking for Cheap as chips or Pet Stop or ":where is number 1046?" etc etc.

Yes you can!

it will then become a mecca for rear end collisions, cars up on footpaths etc. and be worse than useless as a major free flowing route.

Why do you think removing the need to stop at traffic lights would result in a load of rear end collisions and cars on footpaths?

Those rubberneckers would only hold up the flow in one lane each way, and there is potential to subsequently add a local traffic lane each way to accommodate them and the stopping buses and traffic joining. But even without it, making the traffic in front the only obstruction is a big improvement over the current situation.

Public transport although it has it's place does not allow for movement of freight/ mail/ retail etc.

Wrong - for although it doesn't directly allow it, it does not prevent it, and it has the most potential to address the traffic congestion which currently impedes the trucks.

and it is the trucks, buses light trucks ,delvivery drivers that will need this corridor certainly within the next 20 years. Call it a toll/ shadow tax/ levy / rego / call it daylight robbery if you like...the fact is we need to start funding it now as every other city in Australia has done for the last 20 years.

Perth does not have any tollways.

[Waewick]

so what we should be lobbing for is a specific infrastrucutre fund which will be built up by a "toll" but not a direct one.

personally, I think it could work, I'm just not sure how you go about raising it.

could we increase transport fines by $5-10? or registration by $5-10? or add it on rental car premiums?

[claybro]

2 cents per litre at the pump quarantined only for specific road and PT projects and independantly audited should do it.

[crawf]

Excluding roads like South Road. I don't believe we have the most disfunctional road system. It's a piece of cake driving around Adelaide with its extremely well planned road network. The only issue has been the lack of $$$ in the past

[claybro]

I work in an industry which relies on fast efficient movement of trades and materials. I also work in other state offices. I can assure you all, the road system in Adelaide, peak hours aside is the most inefficiant. Appart from a short time in peak hours the freeways of Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth work well in moving vehicles and materials over long distance in a short time with 80-100km/h the norm. Here in Adel.even in times of light traffic, the non sequenced traffic lights here are mind boggling and make a trip from Northern Adelaide industrial areas to the South a slow and frustrating journey. Even on South road, every little cross road, pedestrian crossing, school etc, all have traffic lights. It will not be suitable to bung in a few overpasses/ underpasses. This will not bring the speed of the journey up to par whith what is experienced interstate. It needs to be planned now in i'ts ENTIRE length 80-100 km/h Regency to Darlington, costed and then figure out the required way of funding be it tolls or whatever. Aidan seems to favour a tollway for the Northern connector, but not South Road at it's most conjested, slowest point. I dont understand, it should all be tolled /levied or shadow tolled by the methods already discussed.

[muzzamo]

The discussion atm seems to be focusing on using tolls to fund the roads.

I think that tolls serve two equally important purposes, funding the roads and putting a price on using the roads.

Imagine if water in SA was "free" (paid for by the taxpayer). Do you think we would have a greater or lesser shortage of water if there was no incentive to use less? The same needs to apply to individual roads in our road system. The most expensive and valuable roads need to be priced so that their use is not taken for granted by city commuters, soccer mums etc and freed up for industries that need it instead. Vehicles that have a high enough economic importance (truckies see no problem with tolls if it shortens their time because time is money) will be happy to pay the tolls. Vehicles that have a low economic importance (daily city commuters who can easily catch public transport) may refuse to pay the tolls and seek alternative transport methods instead.

[Wayno]

A technological innovation, already in use by the SA Govt, could be useful - check it out:

http://www.sa.gov.au/subject/Transport, ... d+vehicles

All road traffic cameras detect unregistered and uninsured vehicles on South Australian roads, in addition to police traffic enforcement.

The govt is already scanning license plates and knows YOUR movements. Big brother concerns to the side, this infrastructure could be leveraged to monitor & tax you based on your movements. Snapped during peak hour on South Rd - 50c fee. Traveling through the CBD at 8:30am or 5pm - $1 fee. Collecting the cash could be done via the PT smart card system. No cash in your smart card account? well you'll cop a fine.

A 'user pays' approach is the fairest, much better than taxing everyone via increased rego costs or 2 cents at the pump.

[Aidan]

A technological innovation, already in use by the SA Govt, could be useful - check it out:

http://www.sa.gov.au/subject/Transport, ... d+vehicles

All road traffic cameras detect unregistered and uninsured vehicles on South Australian roads, in addition to police traffic enforcement.

And that's the state government's latest way of funding road improvements: they've ceased issuing the windscreen stickers to remind the drivers when the rego's due, in order to maximize the revenue from the fines they charge for not having the vehicles registered.

I think a 2c/l levy on fuel would be much better, but that's far more difficult to implement than it seems as state government fuel taxes were found to be unconstitutional when it came to court a few years ago. IIRC the Federal Government took over and returned the money to the state governments, but at a rate slightly lower than what it was in SA beforehand.

Congestion charging is better still, but persuading the public to support it is the difficult bit.

[Nathan]

And that's the state government's latest way of funding road improvements: they've ceased issuing the windscreen stickers to remind the drivers when the rego's due, in order to maximize the revenue from the fines they charge for not having the vehicles registered.

You're kidding right? They send out a notice, so it's no different then paying any other bill on time. In fact it's even easier as they also have the EzyReg app which automatically reminds you and adds the due date in your calendar.

[ml69]

A technological innovation, already in use by the SA Govt, could be useful - check it out:

http://www.sa.gov.au/subject/Transport, ... d+vehicles

All road traffic cameras detect unregistered and uninsured vehicles on South Australian roads, in addition to police traffic enforcement.

The govt is already scanning license plates and knows YOUR movements. Big brother concerns to the side, this infrastructure could be leveraged to monitor & tax you based on your movements. Snapped during peak hour on South Rd - 50c fee. Traveling through the CBD at 8:30am or 5pm - $1 fee. Collecting the cash could be done via the PT smart card system. No cash in your smart card account? well you'll cop a fine.

A 'user pays' approach is the fairest, much better than taxing everyone via increased rego costs or 2 cents at the pump.

I think your suggestion would be a one-way ticket into Opposition if any incumbent Government dared to propose this.

A broad-based tax such as a 2c fuel levy would be much more politically palatable, and actually spread the revenue collection to a wider base.

[Wayno]

I think your suggestion would be a one-way ticket into Opposition if any incumbent Government dared to propose this. A broad-based tax such as a 2c fuel levy would be much more politically palatable, and actually spread the revenue collection to a wider base.

Spreading across a wider base is a non sequitor. Improving traffic conditions is not simply a matter of raising funds to build more road capacity - think induced demand (better roads = more traffic = stalemate, especially for inner suburbs). Behavioural change must form part of the deal and charging 2c (or even 5c) per litre does not discriminate for when & where congestion is worst. In fact it adversely impacts everyone (including very low income folk) outside of peak hour.

If one of the goals is to reduce delays during peak hours (for those industries that must use roads) then some sort of trigger is required to push 'casual/other' road users into alternate time periods or onto PT. People don’t like traffic jams and don't like taxes - getting the balance right is the trick.

[edit]oh and I agree the govt would probably get slapped for introducing something so radical, and from a technological stability perspective. But all i'm proposing is really just a form of toll (which is what this discussion is all about).