News & Discussion: Roads & Traffic

Threads relating to transport, water, etc. within the CBD and Metropolitan area.
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Vee
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Re: News & Discussion: Road Issues & Traffic Congestion

#676 Post by Vee » Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:26 am

RAA item on fixed speed/safety cameras, signage and speeding fines.

It includes a map of locations of fixed cameras in the metro area (with comparative fines) and makes out a case for unfair signage contributing to the higher speeding fines on the SE Freeway.
“The two cameras on the SE Freeway, at Leawood Gardens and Crafers, issued speeding fines to more than 25,000 people in 2014/15, totalling more than $10 million"....
Check the map in the RAA article.
“.... if the infrastructure in the area isn’t allowing them to do that, because they aren’t being clearly notified that the speed limit has been dropped temporarily, that doesn’t seem fair.”
The RAA makes several suggestions to create more effective signage to better inform motorists of varying speed limits and improve road safety.
RAA:
http://www.raa.com.au/community-and-adv ... ed-cameras

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Re: News & Discussion: Road Issues & Traffic Congestion

#677 Post by Ben » Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:44 am

I am one of those people fined recently on the freeway when the speed limit was temporarily reduced to 80 because it had rained earlier in the day (I did not see this) I was doing 88. I had taken my housemate from Wales to Hahndorf to show him around. Lovely way to ruin the day. This subsequently led to me losing my licence for 3 months as a couple of months earlier I received 3 fines on the same road within a week, where the limit had recently been permanently reduced from 60 to 50. My speed was 57, 58 and 61. Not only did I lose my licence but it cost me over $1,200 in fines. If these cameras are not blatantly revenue raising then I don't know what is. They are put in areas where speed limits have been changed to purposely catch motorists out, not to improve safety. It really is unfair but what can you do? Yet I constantly am out and about seeing someone zoom past me doing at least 100 in a 60 zone yet they won't get fined because they aren't doing it in an area that is easy to catch people out. The government is more hell bent on catching a lot of people out doing 10 kms over the limit then catching a smaller number of drivers who are actually speeding in a dangerous manner.

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Re: News & Discussion: Road Issues & Traffic Congestion

#678 Post by Nathan » Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:10 pm

Hate to be that guy, but:
Ben wrote:the speed limit was temporarily reduced to 80 because it had rained earlier in the day.
and
Ben wrote:If these cameras are not blatantly revenue raising then I don't know what is. They are put in areas where speed limits have been changed to purposely catch motorists out, not to improve safety.

They're there because there's far far too many people—especially on the freeway—who don't drive to conditions.

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Re: News & Discussion: Road Issues & Traffic Congestion

#679 Post by Llessur2002 » Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:18 pm

Nathan wrote:They're there because there's far far too many people—especially on the freeway—who don't drive to conditions.
Sorry mate but I have to agree with this. As a driver it's your responsibility to drive in accordance with road rules and speed limits - regardless of whether you think they are appropriate. According to your post, on four separate occasions you either did not see or did not obey the signed speed limits. Either there's an observational issue that needs to be corrected, or you knowingly and routinely broke the speed limit by between 7 and 11 km/h.

Not quite sure what's unfair about that.

On the positive side hopefully this experience will change your behaviour. I used to speed all the time in my first 12 months of driving. Then, shortly after I turned 18 I got snapped by a speed camera and fined. I was 2kph away from an automatic court appearance and losing my licence (this was in the UK - not sure if it's different here). Totally changed my attitude after that - I do everything I can to avoid creeping over the speed limit and haven't had a fine in the 17 years since...

Bloody hell - just realised it's been 17 years since I turned 18 :(
Last edited by Llessur2002 on Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: News & Discussion: Road Issues & Traffic Congestion

#680 Post by rev » Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:25 pm

Ben wrote:I am one of those people fined recently on the freeway when the speed limit was temporarily reduced to 80 because it had rained earlier in the day (I did not see this) I was doing 88. I had taken my housemate from Wales to Hahndorf to show him around. Lovely way to ruin the day. This subsequently led to me losing my licence for 3 months as a couple of months earlier I received 3 fines on the same road within a week, where the limit had recently been permanently reduced from 60 to 50. My speed was 57, 58 and 61. Not only did I lose my licence but it cost me over $1,200 in fines. If these cameras are not blatantly revenue raising then I don't know what is. They are put in areas where speed limits have been changed to purposely catch motorists out, not to improve safety. It really is unfair but what can you do? Yet I constantly am out and about seeing someone zoom past me doing at least 100 in a 60 zone yet they won't get fined because they aren't doing it in an area that is easy to catch people out. The government is more hell bent on catching a lot of people out doing 10 kms over the limit then catching a smaller number of drivers who are actually speeding in a dangerous manner.
While it sucks to have lost your license, it really isn't the governments fault.

You as a motorist are responsible for making sure that you are obeying the road rules, and ensuring you are driving within the speed limit.
If they change the limit on certain roads and throw up cameras to enforce the change, and you get caught, it's not the fault of the government for putting a camera there, but your fault for failing to take notice of the changes that are signed.

It's called complacency.
You aren't paying attention to the changes in signed speed limits, and that's why you got pinged.
The cameras are there to enforce the new speed limit.

If you are paying more attention to signed speed limits now, then the purpose of those cameras has worked on you.

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Re: News & Discussion: Road Issues & Traffic Congestion

#681 Post by phenom » Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:25 pm

Ben wrote:I am one of those people fined recently on the freeway when the speed limit was temporarily reduced to 80 because it had rained earlier in the day (I did not see this) I was doing 88. I had taken my housemate from Wales to Hahndorf to show him around. Lovely way to ruin the day. This subsequently led to me losing my licence for 3 months as a couple of months earlier I received 3 fines on the same road within a week, where the limit had recently been permanently reduced from 60 to 50. My speed was 57, 58 and 61. Not only did I lose my licence but it cost me over $1,200 in fines. If these cameras are not blatantly revenue raising then I don't know what is. They are put in areas where speed limits have been changed to purposely catch motorists out, not to improve safety. It really is unfair but what can you do? Yet I constantly am out and about seeing someone zoom past me doing at least 100 in a 60 zone yet they won't get fined because they aren't doing it in an area that is easy to catch people out. The government is more hell bent on catching a lot of people out doing 10 kms over the limit then catching a smaller number of drivers who are actually speeding in a dangerous manner.
Warning - I'm having a soapbox moment :-)

I'm very sympathetic with your view. Just to be clear, I have been driving for well over 20 years and have not had a single speeding ticket (touch wood). That said, it's been luck - not because I speed but because of poor signage.

I agree that the focus is far too much on catching people out for easily monitored minor speed breaches rather than trying to encourage good driving. The fact you got fined three times in a short period is indicative of the stupidity of this 'remote' approach to enforcement. We all know areas where there's no signage indicating 40 or 50km/hr or it's sparse (ie one sign at each end of the road, bad luck if you turn onto it part way along), roadwork signs left out permanently (with no end - eg you pass a 25 sign and there's no end roadwork sign ahead) and signage that is blocked if a bus or truck happens to be next to you.

I rarely drive these days since I live and work in the CBD but virtually without fail even on short trips I STILL see:
- people blatantly using their mobiles while driving (and often their car meandering across the lane)
- people who fail to indicate / pull out recklessly instead of giving way for 5 seconds / cut people off or block them for no purpose (eg you indicate and someone accelerates just to block you in)
- driving through red lights way after it could even be called marginal (eg the lights have already gone green for traffic passing in a different direction)
- cars belching burning oil / overly tinted windows / obviously bald tyres
- cars driving erratically (to the point where they must be either having a medical emergency or are on drugs)
- cars driving without numberplates on either front OR back (and no trade plates, either)

It is incredibly frustrating to see these things unpoliced and many of them are incredibly dangerous. We all know that people suddenly 'drive properly' when they are in the vicinity of a police vehicle. Frequent and more visible patrols combined with remote enforcement in known accident zones is clearly the most legitimate way to enhance road safety.
I would suggest being pulled over at the time an offence occurs and physically speaking to a police officer has an enormous and longlasting deterrent versus a letter in the mail with a fine and loss of points 2 weeks later. I would also suggest whatever the transport department is called these days needs to spend some time checking their signage positioning and frequency.

/rant off

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Re: News & Discussion: Road Issues & Traffic Congestion

#682 Post by Ben » Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:53 pm

rev wrote:
Ben wrote:I am one of those people fined recently on the freeway when the speed limit was temporarily reduced to 80 because it had rained earlier in the day (I did not see this) I was doing 88. I had taken my housemate from Wales to Hahndorf to show him around. Lovely way to ruin the day. This subsequently led to me losing my licence for 3 months as a couple of months earlier I received 3 fines on the same road within a week, where the limit had recently been permanently reduced from 60 to 50. My speed was 57, 58 and 61. Not only did I lose my licence but it cost me over $1,200 in fines. If these cameras are not blatantly revenue raising then I don't know what is. They are put in areas where speed limits have been changed to purposely catch motorists out, not to improve safety. It really is unfair but what can you do? Yet I constantly am out and about seeing someone zoom past me doing at least 100 in a 60 zone yet they won't get fined because they aren't doing it in an area that is easy to catch people out. The government is more hell bent on catching a lot of people out doing 10 kms over the limit then catching a smaller number of drivers who are actually speeding in a dangerous manner.
You as a motorist are responsible for making sure that you are obeying the road rules, and ensuring you are driving within the speed limit.
If they change the limit on certain roads and throw up cameras to enforce the change, and you get caught, it's not the fault of the government for putting a camera there, but your fault for failing to take notice of the changes that are signed.

If you are paying more attention to signed speed limits now, then the purpose of those cameras has worked on you.
Is this a joke?

So I have been driving down the same road for 5 years suddenly overnight they decide to change the speed limit from 60 to 50 with no consultation or communication and yet I am meant to check the sign each day to make sure it has not changed? I seriously hope you are taking the piss.

The fact I did not get one fine on this road for 4 and a half years prior I was using it yet did 3 times in the week after the change proves they were trying to catch motorists out. How is that fair and just?

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Re: News & Discussion: Road Issues & Traffic Congestion

#683 Post by Llessur2002 » Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:57 pm

phenom wrote:I rarely drive these days since I live and work in the CBD but virtually without fail even on short trips I STILL see:
- people blatantly using their mobiles while driving (and often their car meandering across the lane)
- people who fail to indicate / pull out recklessly instead of giving way for 5 seconds / cut people off or block them for no purpose (eg you indicate and someone accelerates just to block you in)
- driving through red lights way after it could even be called marginal (eg the lights have already gone green for traffic passing in a different direction)
- cars belching burning oil / overly tinted windows / obviously bald tyres
- cars driving erratically (to the point where they must be either having a medical emergency or are on drugs)
- cars driving without numberplates on either front OR back (and no trade plates, either)
All valid points but on the freeway between Hahndorf and Adelaide isn't the speed limit displayed on gantries with a great big illuminated sign over each lane every few hundred metres?

Whilst there are arguably issues with signage in some locations I don't think this can be classed as one of them...
Ben wrote:I am meant to check the sign each day to make sure it has not changed? I seriously hope you are taking the piss.
Seriously, is *this* a joke?

Of course you're meant to check each and every sign whenever you pass it. That's one of the fundamental concepts of safe driving - observation.

How flipping dangerous would driving be if everyone just coasted around on autopilot from day to day assuming that nothing had changed since the last time they drove that stretch of road?!? :shock:

Ignorance of the law is not a valid excuse for breaking it. If this is genuinely your attitude then I have serious concern of your overall suitability to drive a car on a public road.

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Re: News & Discussion: Road Issues & Traffic Congestion

#684 Post by Ben » Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:11 pm

Llessur2002 wrote:
phenom wrote:I rarely drive these days since I live and work in the CBD but virtually without fail even on short trips I STILL see:
- people blatantly using their mobiles while driving (and often their car meandering across the lane)
- people who fail to indicate / pull out recklessly instead of giving way for 5 seconds / cut people off or block them for no purpose (eg you indicate and someone accelerates just to block you in)
- driving through red lights way after it could even be called marginal (eg the lights have already gone green for traffic passing in a different direction)
- cars belching burning oil / overly tinted windows / obviously bald tyres
- cars driving erratically (to the point where they must be either having a medical emergency or are on drugs)
- cars driving without numberplates on either front OR back (and no trade plates, either)
All valid points but on the freeway between Hahndorf and Adelaide isn't the speed limit displayed on gantries with a great big illuminated sign over each lane every few hundred metres?

Whilst there are arguably issues with signage in some locations I don't think this can be classed as one of them...
Ben wrote:I am meant to check the sign each day to make sure it has not changed? I seriously hope you are taking the piss.
Seriously, is *this* a joke?

Of course you're meant to check each and every sign whenever you pass it. That's one of the fundamental concepts of safe driving - observation.

How flipping dangerous would driving be if everyone just coasted around on autopilot from day to day assuming that nothing had changed since the last time they drove that stretch of road?!? :shock:

Ignorance of the law is not a valid excuse for breaking it. If this is genuinely your attitude then I have serious concern of your overall suitability to drive a car on a public road.

I look forward to the day you get a fine because one of the roads you travel on every day has changed its limit and the only notification is on the sign you pass everyday while on "auto pilot". If you think this system is fair then you would not have an issue with the fine and blame yourself for not checking it each and every time you pass it. Easy to point the finger when on the other side. Funny thing is it will happen.

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Re: News & Discussion: Road Issues & Traffic Congestion

#685 Post by Llessur2002 » Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:23 pm

Ben wrote:I look forward to the day you get a fine because one of the roads you travel on every day has changed its limit and the only notification is on the sign you pass everyday while on "auto pilot". If you think this system is fair then you would not have an issue with the fine and blame yourself for not checking it each and every time you pass it. Easy to point the finger when on the other side. Funny thing is it will happen.
Dude, if it does then I'll be first to hold my hand up and say I was completely and utterly in the wrong.

Complacency is flipping dangerous when you're driving. People forget that they're piloting a huge and very heavy chunk of metal around the public domain with enormous potential to cause injury and devastation. It's too easy to just cruise around not really respecting the responsibility that comes with it.

Sorry to sound all overly dramatic and self-righteous but yes, every single second of hurtling around the streets in your massive great chunk of metal you have a moral (not to mention legal) obligation to be constantly scanning your environment to ensure you're driving within the law and appropriately for the conditions. Signs, road junctions, pedestrians, other vehicles, road markings, the weather, cyclists, your mirrors, your speed, other people's speed, what's happening right in front of you, in the 10 metres in front of you, the 100 metres in front of you, what the road does in the distance, what the next set of traffic lights is doing or likely to do etc etc. That's how you drive safely - you constantly judge and assess all of these factors and adapt your driving accordingly.

Maybe I drive like a bit of a grandad but then again I haven't had four speeding fines in a matter of weeks...

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Re: News & Discussion: Road Issues & Traffic Congestion

#686 Post by Waewick » Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:26 pm

who are you to say who moral obligations one has? what are you a diety?

If I drive within the law, thats all one is responsible for, not someone elses moral veiwpoint.

and to be frank, I find the notion of existing speeding laws to be outrageous, not because I don't understand the correlation between speeding and lower fatality, but becuase the manner in which the crime is caught and fined is a disgrace.

that is not even going into the fact that the fines on these things are so grossly out of whack to other crimes.

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Re: News & Discussion: Road Issues & Traffic Congestion

#687 Post by rhino » Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:31 pm

I think the electronic speed signs on the freeway are a brilliant thing. Last week, when my engine blew up going up the freeway, I was forced to stop in a very dangerous place, on the road. Within 2 minutes the speed signs were reading 40km/hr (the cameras had picked up that there was a problem, and within 5 minutes the MFS were there). This was a typical case of the speed signs not saying what they say every day, but where somebody coming up behind me at 100km/hr could have caused a lot of heartache.

As good as they are, I think they could be better - they could flash on and off when the speed is reading different to the usual.

Llessur, they are not over the roadway, they are on posts at the edge of the roadway.
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Re: News & Discussion: Road Issues & Traffic Congestion

#688 Post by rhino » Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:33 pm

Waewick wrote:If I drive within the law, thats all one is responsible for, not someone elses moral veiwpoint.
Now here's a ridiculous comment.

If a child runs out in front of you, it's not up to you to be aware, as long as you're not breaking the law? Yes mate, you DO have a moral obligation out there, we all do.
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Re: News & Discussion: Road Issues & Traffic Congestion

#689 Post by Llessur2002 » Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:56 pm

Waewick wrote:what are you a diety?
I have long suspected this to be the case.

But seriously mate, surely we all have an obligation to ensure our actions on the road (or elsewhere) ultimately don't end up cutting the life short of some poor bugger who was just minding their own business.

Whether you want to call it a 'moral' obligation or not, using the example above i.e smacking into the back of a broken down car on the freeway because you haven't noticed that the speed limit has been lowered seems to me like a pretty surefire way of being prosecuted for driving without due care and attention which fits square into the 'legal obligation' category.

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Re: News & Discussion: Road Issues & Traffic Congestion

#690 Post by Waewick » Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:07 pm

Llessur2002 wrote:
Waewick wrote:what are you a diety?
I have long suspected this to be the case.

But seriously mate, surely we all have an obligation to ensure our actions on the road (or elsewhere) ultimately don't end up cutting the life short of some poor bugger who was just minding their own business.

Whether you want to call it a 'moral' obligation or not, using the example above i.e smacking into the back of a broken down car on the freeway because you haven't noticed that the speed limit has been lowered seems to me like a pretty surefire way of being prosecuted for driving without due care and attention which fits square into the 'legal obligation' category.
we have a legal obligation, that is about it as far as I can tell, If someone dies at my hands, at the law of land exonerate me, then there is no issue is there.

but anyway, i was being light hearted, so play on!

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