News & Discussion: Trams

[victorious80]

Time to focus our thoughts on other things. The poles were old, in very poor condition and had not been designed to carry the loads required by modern light rail overheads. Coming from someone who has the facts. It would've been like knocking down a house from 1895 and building a new two storey house on the old bluestone footings. If the poles could have been reused, they would have.

Also, to give some comfort to those on the forum, a LOT of international and interstate advice was sought for the project. You don't need to physically travel to Europe to get the information you need anymore.

[Adelaidean]

Time to focus our thoughts on other things. The poles were old, in very poor condition and had not been designed to carry the loads required by modern light rail overheads. Coming from someone who has the facts. It would've been like knocking down a house from 1895 and building a new two storey house on the old bluestone footings. If the poles could have been reused, they would have.

Also, to give some comfort to those on the forum, a LOT of international and interstate advice was sought for the project. You don't need to physically travel to Europe to get the information you need anymore.

Well said.

[rubberman]

Time to focus our thoughts on other things. The poles were old, in very poor condition and had not been designed to carry the loads required by modern light rail overheads. Coming from someone who has the facts. It would've been like knocking down a house from 1895 and building a new two storey house on the old bluestone footings. If the poles could have been reused, they would have.

Also, to give some comfort to those on the forum, a LOT of international and interstate advice was sought for the project. You don't need to physically travel to Europe to get the information you need anymore.

Yes, interesting to see the reaction to a suggestion that maybe we should look at a bit of recycling. Sounds like some raw nerves were touched.

I would be far more confident that those planning all this knew what they were doing if it were not for the debacles of the centre island stops and Citadis purchases. Or the apparent non-consideration of standard rail from Whyalla in the Jetty Road relay, vs the imported grooved rail.

The government is fortunate that the Opposition is not interested in trams. Were an even moderately competent opposition party to stand up and ask some questions, bland assurances that overseas advice had been sought would not be enough. Plus, of course, some interstate and overseas advice is better than others: NSW and French/British/US advice met with raucous guffaws of derision, for example. (Although French urban architecture is excellent, tram technology is a work in progress).

Finally, it's admittedly all pretty mickey mouse for a 1.3km extension, but previous history as outlined above gives me only a low degree of confidence that we are on top of the technology of trams here.

[Norman]

I do wonder how much of the planning and design work gets done at DPTI and how much is done by the private contractors. Does anybody know?

[claybro]

Interesting we gripe about the cost and slow pace of infrastructure projects, when as a nation, we have some of the highest cost of labour in the world, have outsourced most manufacturing overseas, and now have some of the highest energy costs in the world. Australia as a whole is also about to disappear up its own backside in a flurry of compliance, OH&S, red tape, green tape, environmental compliance and over governance on a massive scale. That the discussion has progressed to recycling some rotting old parts, buried underneath North terrace for 60odd years and some old light poles really sums up how we have collectively lost the plot as a modern, progressive place to do business. As for negative comments about the DPTI, well the train and tram upgrades have been beset by problems, and the operation of the existing tram system is a bit of a joke, when we have an example of how to operate a decent tram system, including light rail and street running just a few hundred kilometres up the road in Melbourne, and Perth managed to underground a section of its rail system, in the middle of the CBD, keeping all lines running, with only minimal weekend closures.

[citywatcher]

Interesting we gripe about the cost and slow pace of infrastructure projects, when as a nation, we have some of the highest cost of labour in the world, have outsourced most manufacturing overseas, and now have some of the highest energy costs in the world. Australia as a whole is also about to disappear up its own backside in a flurry of compliance, OH&S, red tape, green tape, environmental compliance and over governance on a massive scale. That the discussion has progressed to recycling some rotting old parts, buried underneath North terrace for 60odd years and some old light poles really sums up how we have collectively lost the plot as a modern, progressive place to do business. As for negative comments about the DPTI, well the train and tram upgrades have been beset by problems, and the operation of the existing tram system is a bit of a joke, when we have an example of how to operate a decent tram system, including light rail and street running just a few hundred kilometres up the road in Melbourne, and Perth managed to underground a section of its rail system, in the middle of the CBD, keeping all lines running, with only minimal weekend closures.

You forgot the biggest factor
Corporate greed

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[rubberman]

Interesting we gripe about the cost and slow pace of infrastructure projects, when as a nation, we have some of the highest cost of labour in the world, have outsourced most manufacturing overseas, and now have some of the highest energy costs in the world. Australia as a whole is also about to disappear up its own backside in a flurry of compliance, OH&S, red tape, green tape, environmental compliance and over governance on a massive scale. That the discussion has progressed to recycling some rotting old parts, buried underneath North terrace for 60odd years and some old light poles really sums up how we have collectively lost the plot as a modern, progressive place to do business. As for negative comments about the DPTI, well the train and tram upgrades have been beset by problems, and the operation of the existing tram system is a bit of a joke, when we have an example of how to operate a decent tram system, including light rail and street running just a few hundred kilometres up the road in Melbourne, and Perth managed to underground a section of its rail system, in the middle of the CBD, keeping all lines running, with only minimal weekend closures.

Claybro, as I have REPEATEDLY said, the issue of recycling poles (Not sleepers) came up as a question of whether or not it had been considered, nothing more. It's a mickey mouse issue in the scheme of things.

The big picture is that SA is looking to spend around $2bn on a tram system. To have any chance of that progressing past a pipe dream, it needs to have a very robust business case.

The evidence to date is that we have had poor design (witness centre island stops), poor planning (witness the need to buy the Citadis in a hurry), and poor vehicle selection (Citadis, based not on technical, financial, or operational considerations).

Given these failures, why should a responsible Federal Government give SA one single cent? Other projects could well have higher priority, and jurisdictions like Perth, which do have their act together DESERVE the funding. Jurisdictions that can't plan or design should be told to improve themselves and not get funding till they do.

Consideration of possible recycling to minimise costs is a tiny tiny part of the whole picture.

[nevillness]

The original tram system was partly scrapped because the infrastructure degraded to the point that it all needed to be replaced. Why would anything be reused now? It wasn't fit for use back then and its been left to degrade even further for the last 50+ years.

[rubberman]

The original tram system was partly scrapped because the infrastructure degraded to the point that it all needed to be replaced. Why would anything be reused now? It wasn't fit for use back then and its been left to degrade even further for the last 50+ years.

Examples: What would it cost to refurbish and re-use the rail in King William St South? It has plenty of life left on the top, and once the corrugations are removed (that's cheap, and can be done in place), the rail would have another thirty years in it. Savings: no new imported rail. No transport costs, it's on site. That is, easier and cheaper and feasible, but nah, let's just import stuff from overseas, because....

Poles: There's still plenty round the city. They were reused at the St Kilda Tram Museum, and most have lasted forty years next to a saline evaporation lake.

But nah, let's not even think about it. It's only taxpayers' money.

[Goodsy]

might be a silly question, but are the old rails even the right gauge?

[monotonehell]

might be a silly question, but are the old rails even the right gauge?

Well.. they must be because the Glenelg tram is using them today.

[SouthAussie94]

They were reused at the St Kilda Tram Museum

The requirements at the tram museum are not the same as the requirements for a public transport service. Apples and Oranges..

Why did they demolish the footings of the old Rhino Room? They supported the old building just fine, seems like such a waste that they weren't reused for the new Adelaidean building. Good thing it wasn't taxpayers dollars used...

[citywatcher]

They were reused at the St Kilda Tram Museum

The requirements at the tram museum are not the same as the requirements for a public transport service. Apples and Oranges..

Why did they demolish the footings of the old Rhino Room? They supported the old building just fine, seems like such a waste that they weren't reused for the new Adelaidean building. Good thing it wasn't taxpayers dollars used...

I note your subtle sarcasm
I don't know what the fuss is all about

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[rubberman]

They were reused at the St Kilda Tram Museum

The requirements at the tram museum are not the same as the requirements for a public transport service. Apples and Oranges..

Are you sure of that? Apples and oranges how? Carrying passengers for money, railed vehicles of similar weights, same guage, on rails, similar speeds 600 volts DC traction voltage, trolley wire of similar diameters. And if you put a pantograph on any of the tram museum's cars, they could run from Jetty Road to Vic Square, and possibly the Entertainment Centre. The only possible glitch might be getting caught up on the centre islands.

But apart from similar speeds, similar weights, similar duties, same guage, same voltage, similar trolley wire diameter, ability to operate one each other's track, they're completely different. Riiiiiight!

Oh, and here's a link to an image of a present day Melbourne tram. Note the 100 year old poles holding up the overhead. But yeah. Totally impossible.

http://tdu.to/m/245376/everyday-caulfield

[crawf]

Oh, and here's a link to an image of a present day Melbourne tram. Note the 100 year old poles holding up the overhead. But yeah. Totally impossible.

http://tdu.to/m/245376/everyday-caulfield

Seriously... who cares?. Can't believe this is still being discussed. They are just poles.