News & Discussion: Trams

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rubberman
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#1726 Post by rubberman » Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:17 am

crawf wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:41 pm
rubberman wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:45 pm

Oh, and here's a link to an image of a present day Melbourne tram. Note the 100 year old poles holding up the overhead. But yeah. Totally impossible.

http://tdu.to/m/245376/everyday-caulfield
Seriously... who cares?. Can't believe this is still being discussed. They are just poles.
Agree. I have REPEATEDLY said that this is a mickey mouse issue.

But I can't let statements that are totally ridiculous and untrue pass by unchallenged.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#1727 Post by bits » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:30 am

Personally I like new things. I like how they look, the reliability they tend to give, the improved function and ease of servicing.

For the sake of the cost to replace some poles vs the cost to repair, reengineer to new requirements, recertify and the visual cost, it just isn't worth it.

Is the overhead at the same height or width? The old system would have been an imperial measurement, the new system metric. Old power substations have warnings that they are built to imperial measurements and do not meet current spec. Eg something seperated by 3 foot vs 1m, similar but not the same.

Time to enjoy new things!

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Nathan
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#1728 Post by Nathan » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:42 am

Should we have a poll on this?

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#1729 Post by timtam20292 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:33 am

Nathan wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:42 am
Should we have a poll on this?
:hilarious:

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#1730 Post by rubberman » Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:55 am

timtam20292 wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:33 am
Nathan wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:42 am
Should we have a poll on this?
:hilarious:
Haha. Totally hilarious. I'm actually quite well off, as are obviously some other commentators. A few hundred thousand dollars here or there isn't a lot for some of us. Others struggle to pay bills. Maybe those who can afford more and want bright and shiny new things could volunteer to pay a bit more. :hilarious:

At the level of the present extension, it's a storm in a tea cup. The problem comes when we are talking about a large $2bn expenditure. And it's not about poles per se, it's about the attitude of just throwing money at something without considering that maybe, just maybe, there are cheaper AND BETTER ways of doing things. Or the attitude that we'd better not even dare to ask the government what it's doing - we should accept whatever slop the government hands up and be grateful.

We've just had a multi-billion dollar spend at the Royal Adelaide Hospital, it's way overdue, and way over cost.

You'd think we might have learnt something after that.

But nah, let's just walk into the next multi-billion dollar project, accept that consultants and governments should not be questioned, and be dazzled by things that are shiny and new.

Just read through the comments here, and we can see why the RAH debacle happened, and why if we don't fight it, the same will happen with the tram system proposals. Too many people are willing to accept that governments and consultants know best for us, and that the answer to everything is to throw money at it. :hilarious:

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#1731 Post by Norman » Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:10 pm

In the end, we ARE re-using poles. The ones along North Terrace between King William Street to Frome Street are being retro-fitted, so they are not replacing EVERYTHING. I am sure they will also re-use existing traffic lights, etc.

But re-using poles that are at or near the end of their asset life is silly, even the ones in Melbourne would be close to replacement age. Might as well replace them now while they are working on the line rather than having to close the system in 5-10 years because they have to replace these old poles. Imagine the Advertiser articles if that happened!

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#1732 Post by rubberman » Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:50 pm

Norman wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:10 pm
In the end, we ARE re-using poles. The ones along North Terrace between King William Street to Frome Street are being retro-fitted, so they are not replacing EVERYTHING. I am sure they will also re-use existing traffic lights, etc.

But re-using poles that are at or near the end of their asset life is silly, even the ones in Melbourne would be close to replacement age. Might as well replace them now while they are working on the line rather than having to close the system in 5-10 years because they have to replace these old poles. Imagine the Advertiser articles if that happened!
One of the definitions of an engineer is that an engineer is someone who can do for a dollar what anyone else can do for ten. So, let me assure you that a competent engineering organisation could replace poles, if necessary, without service interruption or undue expense. It could, with proper maintenance, extend the life of steelwork forever. The Sydney Harbour Bridge, in a corrosive marine environment, isn't going to collapse because it's made of steel, any more than poles, in a far less corrosive environment, are. So, frankly, if there's a system closure due to pole replacement, the Advertiser would be justified in criticising the shut down.

But let's get away from this rather obscure debate.

To me, the question is: what would a successful new tram network need to incorporate in its planning, but are lacking so far?

Things I can think of are:

Strategic tram selection. Let's get away from buying whatever's at hand like the Citadis, because we didn't plan. What about some local content, given parts manufacturers are having a hard time? What about including whole of life costs in selection criteria? Accessibility? Not all low floor cars are equal. Power consumption?

Track construction. Ordinary railway profile rails are quite ok for trams to run on. So how about giving Whyalla some work by minimising the use of grooved rail? Melbourne builds track much quicker than here. How about learning and using their methods? Swift construction means much less adverse impact on businesses.

Overhead and signals. Do we really need the heavy and expensive construction? Or can we do with lighter construction which seems to work elsewhere. Do we need expensive signals such as at the entertainment centre and West Terrace? The old Victoria Square terminus never had them, and never had a problem that I ever heard of.

Operations. Design into the system the ability to operate buses and trams in the same space. Thus in the Parade, Unley and Prospect Roads, let buses and trams use the same corridor as is done in similar situations in Europe. Apart from reducing the number of buses in the same space as cars, such interoperability means that if trams are out of action for some reason, replacement buses can slot in with minimal impact.

Set performance targets that designers and suppliers must meet, and tell them to go away if they can't achieve them...without payment.

What about some positive suggestions?

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#1733 Post by fishinajar » Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:25 pm

At least one plane tree was removed from in front of Ayers House this morning.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#1734 Post by citywatcher » Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:19 pm

I'm assuming these trams won't be running down the middle of North Terrace ?

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#1735 Post by The Scooter Guy » Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:03 pm

citywatcher wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:19 pm
I'm assuming these trams won't be running down the middle of North Terrace ?

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We'll just have to find out.
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#1736 Post by Patrick_27 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:40 am

The Scooter Guy wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:03 pm
citywatcher wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:19 pm
I'm assuming these trams won't be running down the middle of North Terrace ?

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We'll just have to find out.
What does that even mean?

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#1737 Post by Tonsley213 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:07 pm

Of course they are running down the middle. Look at the latest brochures .....

Must be school holidays again...


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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#1738 Post by timtam20292 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:12 pm

Tonsley213 wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:07 pm
Of course they are running down the middle. Look at the latest brochures .....

Must be school holidays again...Image


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This is the second time you have said "must be school holidays"

What is your problem?

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#1739 Post by citywatcher » Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:03 pm

I only say this because the sections being sealed off gradually west along North Terrace is along the southern roadway . I haven't seen any brochures and then people mentioned trams and buses will share bus stops

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#1740 Post by rubberman » Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:02 pm

citywatcher wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:03 pm
I only say this because the sections being sealed off gradually west along North Terrace is along the southern roadway . I haven't seen any brochures and then people mentioned trams and buses will share bus stops

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Ah, the work being done at the moment is new kerbing and bus bays and lights and poles. Once that's done, there should be more room for traffic when they start on the tram tracks...in the middle of the road.

The question is not silly, since side running tracks are done in places such as Warsaw and Pilsen. It was also done in Ballarat and Adelaide (Port Road on the old Findon line). Maybe other places too.

As far as buses and trams running together, that can be done in either centre or side track mode.

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