News & Discussion: Public Transport Contracts, Service & Policy

[rubberman]

They've had a similar system in Prague for four years. I haven't seen a lot of people using them in preference to their card though. So, I guess it will be dependent on how popular it is.

[Norman]

If it requires no new infrastructure I can't see why it shouldn't be implemented. It will be great for visitors and people who don't use the system regularly.

[monotonehell]

I live in the city and make frequent short hops. So I have both a full fare card and a two section card. I make the most use of the shorter fare card, which was an afterthought on the current system. I wonder if they've made accomodation for it in this mobile system.

I did make note of that in their survey.

[bits]

Wifi and/or bluetooth unique ids could be used to track mobile users that are on a bus. Just like Adelaide already uses bluetooth ids at each road intersection to monitor traffic.
Do away with the entire tap on/off system and just put the brains in to the smart phone app and its server.

[Llessur2002]

But that would rely on people to always have their wifi/bluetooth switched on. Mine's only ever on when I'm using it to save battery - or doesn't that matter with modern phones? I'm a little behind the times tech-wise...

[bits]

Bluetooth is super super low powered and you would struggle to measure a difference in run time with it on or off.

Modern phones run wifi scanning, gps, bluetooth, digitizer, mic, batched data, nfc 24/7 as the standard.
Plenty offer always on screen as an option. Phones like the Pixel 2 realistically last the entire day with the always on display feature. It will display names of songs it can hear around you automatically all day long!

If you manually turn everything off I suppose you would not be able to use the app for such a function.
If you turn off your metrocard (eg leave it at home) you also can not use that.
If you turn off nfc you can not use your phone as a credit card, or well use any nfc functions!
It is all the same problem and outcomes - if you want to use the feature, leave it on?

[ChillyPhilly]

But that would rely on people to always have their wifi/bluetooth switched on. Mine's only ever on when I'm using it to save battery - or doesn't that matter with modern phones? I'm a little behind the times tech-wise...

Wifi and Bluetooth on uses more battery than when not on. GPS is the worst offender, however.

[monotonehell]

Wifi and/or bluetooth unique ids could be used to track mobile users that are on a bus. Just like Adelaide already uses bluetooth ids at each road intersection to monitor traffic.
Do away with the entire tap on/off system and just put the brains in to the smart phone app and its server.

FYI: The Bluetooth stack is an attack vector for malware.
https://www.extremetech.com/mobile/2557 ... no-pairing
You should probably turn it off. Unless you are on Apple where it doesn't turn it off, even if you tell it to, so don't worry about it because you're already owned.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... n-them-off


Bluetooth IDs on cars are tracked somewhat anonymously and not at all reliably. They get just enough positives to be statistically useful. To track a passenger for billing, would require a load of handshaking and transactional data. How would the system know if a phone is on the vehicle or just outside the vehicle? Could just be a guy riding a bike alongside a bus. Bluetooth's low powered UHF signals are often blocked by big bags of water (people). A vehicle load of passengers would render communication difficult.

Bottom line is it's not impossible. Just that because it's not an existing technology use, there's a lot of research hurdles that need to be jumped before you would consider it. ($$$)

[bits]

FYI: The Bluetooth stack is an attack vector for malware.

That was patched on my Sony Android device back at the start of September.

Do you advise everyone should turn off their home router because it is an attack vector? Most are littered with security flaws and are unsupported by the vendor. Even if there was a patch available the user is unlikely to know it is available or install it even if they did know. Telstra does push updates to their supplied routers maybe once a year if you are lucky, but for all users with their own supplied tplink, netgear and billion etc when was their last update?

The risk is real, people should buy equipment from vendors that will support their product for years and people should install security updates regularly.


After considering your concerns the way the technology could work could be:
-Hold your phone in your hand with screen on and possible even metro app open.
-As you walk on to the bus the app will ask did you walk on to a bus? You answer yes.
-As you walk off the bus you can also confirm that you got off.

I would make it all super simple such as you connect to the buses wifi ssid to work out you are on a bus and left a bus. While connected to the wifi the data is sent via the wifi to ensure the user has a connection available etc.

The tap on/off would then be confirmed by the user without the user needing to queue to a single machine. Live tap on/off data and gps is obtained for billing purposes.

[Llessur2002]

After considering your concerns the way the technology could work could be:
-Hold your phone in your hand with screen on and possible even metro app open.
-As you walk on to the bus the app will ask did you walk on to a bus? You answer yes.
-As you walk off the bus you can also confirm that you got off.

Seems more of a hassle than grabbing a plastic card out of my pocket and tapping it against a reader.

Where's the benefit of this over a metrocard with auto recharge?

When I first read about this phone ticketing malarkey I thought it would involve using the contactless payment technology that some of them (e.g. iphones) have i.e. instead of tapping your metrocard you tapped your phone and that was that. But if it involves using an app and pressing buttons then I think I'd rather stick with the simplicity of the metrocard.

[monotonehell]

There's an oft forgotten saying "Keep It Simple Stupid." We tend to throw too much tech at simple problems.

Having a simple RFID card is less complex and less prone to problems. The more I think about this idea, the less I like it.

What if your phone battery is flat and it's late at night? How are you going to get home?

[Nathan]

What if your phone battery is flat and it's late at night? How are you going to get home?

Marshall will have you covered with his headline policy of having phone charging points at train stations (speaking of attack vectors...).

[bits]

Seems more of a hassle than grabbing a plastic card out of my pocket and tapping it against a reader.

Where's the benefit of this over a metrocard with auto recharge?

I dont have a metrocard but i have a smartphone. The smartphone already in my pocket would take me minutes to install and setup for my random unplanned bus trip. The metrocard would require thoughts and planning days prior to arrange and put credit on.

Tapping against tap points seems a terribly inefficient system. You need to buy/install/maintain a tap point per entry and queue people as they come through the entries.

The wallet with cash and cards is on the way out. Cash payments are becoming electronic payments and cards are moving to smart phones.
The wallet is the next wristwatch, it was once amazingly common but has become totally redundent and replaced by the computer in everyones pocket.

[Norman]

The problem with investing in technology like that is that the risk of failure. No government will touch anything like that. They will only use tried and safe solutions, and once in a while foray into a low-risk new venture.

The second problem is obsolete technology. By the time something like this is implemented, something else will take over.

The third problem is those who are technologically absent. A grandma or grandpa might have a mobile phone, but if she is anything like my relatives, it will be off most of the time, rendering it useless.

Therefore, it's good to have a safe and trusted solution, such as a MetroCard, and technology that is more convenient for the younger generations, such as NFC payments that work with the existing scanners.

[Llessur2002]

Plus, the vast majority of Adelaide public transport users are people who commute exactly the same journey to and from the CBD every weekday for most of their working life. Whilst the occasional public transport user might find some convenience in not having to carry or remember a metrocard, for the vast majority of users it is just part of their daily routine. Plus, I would have thought by now most of those daily commuters will have set up auto-recharge so that their card always carries a balance.

I guess it's a nice alternative that would work well for visitors and occasional PT users but still can't see how having to get my phone out of my pocket, enter the access code, open an app, confirm whether I'm on a bus, confirm whether I've got off the bus etc (possibly whilst I'm standing up on a moving train/bus trying not to fall over) can be any more convenient that tapping a thin plastic card against a reader. Perhaps it's a generational thing (I'm only mid-30s but I already feel like the technological world has massively overtaken me).

Edit: Another question that's maybe been asked before. But can our off-the-shelf system be converted so that instead of carrying a balance on a metrocard which periodically recharges, it simply charges the linked credit card on a trip by trip basis?

If that's possible, wouldn't a simpler system to be for Adelaide Metro to issue smaller adhesive metrocards that can be stuck to a phone or phone case much like the banks do with credit/debit cards now (i.e. for people whose phones don't have the tap and go function built in). Best of both worlds - no need to remember a separate card, tap on/off with a phone which everyone always remembers to take with them, doesn't matter if the phone runs flat, don't need to use app, relatively cheap and simple to implement.

Even if the charging system can't be changed, having a card attached to your phone might be a convenient idea anyway. I guess the only constraint would be that those cards could only be charged online or set up on auto recharge as it wouldn't be possible to get them into the slot on the top up machines.