News & Discussion: Trams

[Eurostar]

True, but that's not load bearing at all, so half a ute deep?

Moving telecommunication lines, pipes, gas lines or removing old track?

[timtam20292]

Spent yesterday and the day before that in Sydney. Since last being there in July, I'm surprised at how slow the work on the George Street tram is. I get it's a bigger and more difficult job, but the lack of progress visible to a pedestrian like me was alarming.

It's a bigger and more difficult job for sure. But. Check their facebook page and check out the construction!

They are going to run Citadis - longer than ours, but essentially the same axle loads. Then check the track construction photos. There's one showing a ute in the trench where the track is. It's dug down to window level!!!

So, either we here are doing something wrong and our track is seriously underdesigned. Or, Sydney's track construction is waaaay over the top. As I contemplate Citadis running down King William Street without causing major track failure, I reckon I'll bet on Adelaide having it right, comparatively speaking.

Can you please post the Facebook link? Thanks.

[I Follow PAFC]

Spent yesterday and the day before that in Sydney. Since last being there in July, I'm surprised at how slow the work on the George Street tram is. I get it's a bigger and more difficult job, but the lack of progress visible to a pedestrian like me was alarming.

It's a bigger and more difficult job for sure. But. Check their facebook page and check out the construction!

They are going to run Citadis - longer than ours, but essentially the same axle loads. Then check the track construction photos. There's one showing a ute in the trench where the track is. It's dug down to window level!!!

So, either we here are doing something wrong and our track is seriously underdesigned. Or, Sydney's track construction is waaaay over the top. As I contemplate Citadis running down King William Street without causing major track failure, I reckon I'll bet on Adelaide having it right, comparatively speaking.

Can you please post the Facebook link? Thanks.

https://www.facebook.com/SydneyLightRailProject/

http://sydneylightrail.transport.nsw.gov.au/

[rubberman]

True, but that's not load bearing at all, so half a ute deep?

Moving telecommunication lines, pipes, gas lines or removing old track?

Well, all of the above. But if they only dug down in Sydney as deep as DPTI's contractor did in North Terrace, they wouldn't have had to move most of those services.

Funnily enough, much of the former Adelaide concrete work was still in place, with the sleepers still embedded in North Terrace so DPTI had to deal with that too. They did uncover some of the original George Street tram tracks. There were some images on another site, showing the huge difference in both concrete and reinforcement being used. The method used by Sydney (and Melbourne up to the late 1960s), was to prop tram rails on besser blocks, weld old rails across the bases of the new ones every few metres, then pour unreinforced mass concrete round the lot. They would then pretty up the surface and edges. Fifty year life, cheap as chips.

The Adelaide method was interesting. The MTT would start with what looked like standard railway practice - ballast, hardwood sleepers and dog spikes. They then poured a cement slurry around and through the ballast till it was completely submerged to top of sleeper level. Wait till it set, and ta-daa, sleepers set in mass concrete. Then they would fill round the rails up to road level with various final treatments such as wood blocks or brickwork, or dirt and then asphalt. This lasted till the 1980s iirc in King William Street South. If the rail got a bit loose, they used to dig up round the rail base, insert wooden shims on top of the old sleepers and re-spike the rail. I presume they originally intended that when they wanted to renew the rail, they would prise out the old sleepers and put in new ones. Just guessing that, mind you. However, that's pretty labour intensive. So, the relay later on was mass concrete.

[SouthAussie94]

True, but that's not load bearing at all, so half a ute deep?

Moving telecommunication lines, pipes, gas lines or removing old track?

Well, all of the above. But if they only dug down in Sydney as deep as DPTI's contractor did in North Terrace, they wouldn't have had to move most of those services.

Funnily enough, much of the former Adelaide concrete work was still in place, with the sleepers still embedded in North Terrace so DPTI had to deal with that too. They did uncover some of the original George Street tram tracks. There were some images on another site, showing the huge difference in both concrete and reinforcement being used. The method used by Sydney (and Melbourne up to the late 1960s), was to prop tram rails on besser blocks, weld old rails across the bases of the new ones every few metres, then pour unreinforced mass concrete round the lot. They would then pretty up the surface and edges. Fifty year life, cheap as chips.

The Adelaide method was interesting. The MTT would start with what looked like standard railway practice - ballast, hardwood sleepers and dog spikes. They then poured a cement slurry around and through the ballast till it was completely submerged to top of sleeper level. Wait till it set, and ta-daa, sleepers set in mass concrete. Then they would fill round the rails up to road level with various final treatments such as wood blocks or brickwork, or dirt and then asphalt. This lasted till the 1980s iirc in King William Street South. If the rail got a bit loose, they used to dig up round the rail base, insert wooden shims on top of the old sleepers and re-spike the rail. I presume they originally intended that when they wanted to renew the rail, they would prise out the old sleepers and put in new ones. Just guessing that, mind you. However, that's pretty labour intensive. So, the relay later on was mass concrete.

Generally speaking, they relocate and upgrade all services which cross the corridor. There's no point leaving an existing 80 year old sewer/water main in place under the tracks, only to have to dig the whole lot up in 5 years time when the water main bursts. It's better to replace everything now. It's also about consolidating services into the lease number of alignments possible. Why have three electrical conduits running basically next to each other when you can have them all in the same common services trench. Again, this is done in the name of making future maintenance easier and cheaper.

The same thing happened in Rundle Mall when they replaced the pavers. And it happens with basically every major infrastructure project..

[rubberman]

Moving telecommunication lines, pipes, gas lines or removing old track?

Well, all of the above. But if they only dug down in Sydney as deep as DPTI's contractor did in North Terrace, they wouldn't have had to move most of those services.

Funnily enough, much of the former Adelaide concrete work was still in place, with the sleepers still embedded in North Terrace so DPTI had to deal with that too. They did uncover some of the original George Street tram tracks. There were some images on another site, showing the huge difference in both concrete and reinforcement being used. The method used by Sydney (and Melbourne up to the late 1960s), was to prop tram rails on besser blocks, weld old rails across the bases of the new ones every few metres, then pour unreinforced mass concrete round the lot. They would then pretty up the surface and edges. Fifty year life, cheap as chips.

The Adelaide method was interesting. The MTT would start with what looked like standard railway practice - ballast, hardwood sleepers and dog spikes. They then poured a cement slurry around and through the ballast till it was completely submerged to top of sleeper level. Wait till it set, and ta-daa, sleepers set in mass concrete. Then they would fill round the rails up to road level with various final treatments such as wood blocks or brickwork, or dirt and then asphalt. This lasted till the 1980s iirc in King William Street South. If the rail got a bit loose, they used to dig up round the rail base, insert wooden shims on top of the old sleepers and re-spike the rail. I presume they originally intended that when they wanted to renew the rail, they would prise out the old sleepers and put in new ones. Just guessing that, mind you. However, that's pretty labour intensive. So, the relay later on was mass concrete.

Generally speaking, they relocate and upgrade all services which cross the corridor. There's no point leaving an existing 80 year old sewer/water main in place under the tracks, only to have to dig the whole lot up in 5 years time when the water main bursts. It's better to replace everything now. It's also about consolidating services into the lease number of alignments possible. Why have three electrical conduits running basically next to each other when you can have them all in the same common services trench. Again, this is done in the name of making future maintenance easier and cheaper.

The same thing happened in Rundle Mall when they replaced the pavers. And it happens with basically every major infrastructure project..

4 points.

First. All utilities with underground services have standard minimum cover. The deeper you dig, the more likely you will need to relocate/repair/reinforce utility services.

Second. When looking at whether to replace any service deeper than that minimum cover, it is considered best practice to first check on the condition. If it's in good condition, then it's very bad practice to replace it. One mistake in the new construction under a slab of concrete, vs leaving in place something in good condition is a trap for the inexperienced, which a competent senior manager would slap upside the head.

Third, most utilities in the modern world now use advanced No-dig techniques to replace or repair services under major roads and other construction. SA Water has been doing this for thirty years. SA is well advanced in this. Of course, if someone already is digging up the road, as in North Terrace, utilities will take the opportunity to upgrade on the cheap if they need to. However, it isn't driven by the tram works unless they are so deep as to infringe minimum cover standards.

Fourth point. If it is impossible to maintain minimum cover to utility services, some utilities will allow a compromise: install a concrete slab over the service. You know something say 300mm thick and with steel in it.



So, the point is, the deeper you dig like they did in Sydney, the more services you will impact.

[Patrick_27]

Adelaide's system will work, that said, it's the cheapest possible way of doing things. Sydney had (as far as I know) Federal backing for heir system hence it having so much better detailing (cobble stone filler between tracks, etc). I think we've done right by putting stations on either side of the track rather than in the centre however I'm still not with the whole attaching cabling to light poles, I find this can look really messy if not done right...

[rubberman]

Adelaide's system will work, that said, it's the cheapest possible way of doing things. Sydney had (as far as I know) Federal backing for heir system hence it having so much better detailing (cobble stone filler between tracks, etc). I think we've done right by putting stations on either side of the track rather than in the centre however I'm still not with the whole attaching cabling to light poles, I find this can look really messy if not done right...

I guess it depends on what benefit you get for the extra money spent. If Adelaide spent an extra $120M on the North Terrace extension which is the rate Sydney is spending, what more would we get? Frankly, if that extra money was on the table, would we want a deeper slab and cobbles? Or would we prefer that money to go to bike lanes, or towards electrification of the Gawler line, or another 2-3 km of the CityLink?

Similarly, we could have done it cheaper, with a 50 year life, by using the mass concrete systems used by Melbourne and Sydney, and with the same money, gotten another stop length towards Norwood.

That's one reason I don’t envy politicians. There's always more that people want them to do, than money to do it.

Edit: The second track past John Martin's car park toward Pulteney Street has been poured, and the formwork is being removed.

[rubberman]

If you have half an hour to waste, here's a video from the 1960s bt the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Board. The first few minutes is boring, but after that, there's a lot of interesting stuff. Relevant to the track discussion is a short passage at the 17-18 minute mark, showing the method of track laying. Much less stuffing around, and a fifty year life.

https://youtu.be/BPh-WCdO0sc

[PeFe]

Sydney had (as far as I know) Federal backing for heir system hence it having so much better detailing (cobble stone filler between tracks, etc). I th

No, the new Sydney tram line is all NSW state government money..........oh to be blessed living in a rich state!

[Eurostar]

Sydney had (as far as I know) Federal backing for heir system hence it having so much better detailing (cobble stone filler between tracks, etc). I th

No, the new Sydney tram line is all NSW state government money..........oh to be blessed living in a rich state!

Yes but they sold their poles and wires too

[rubberman]

Went past the work done on the weekend.

I noticed that they have huge steel plates over the section of track just East of John Martin's car park. This allows the traffic to go over the new work, I presume to allow time for the concrete to cure before getting impacted by cars and buses. I would be concerned if it rained though. Steel plates aren't skid-proof as many a motorcyclist can attest going over tram tracks. A whole lane in wet weather might require some care.

[PeFe]

A bit of fluff from the Advertiser about a fare evasion crackdown on the trams.

Adelaide tram inspectors cracking down on fare evaders



TRAM inspectors are cracking down on fare evaders as part of an “unprecedented” campaign to stop people getting a free ride.

More than 650 people have been fined since July for not having a valid ticket on the tram line, between Glenelg and the Entertainment Centre.

It compares with 727 fines for the same offence in the entire 2016/17 financial year, and just 381 the year before that.

Transport officers have collected more than $140,000 in fines over the past five months.

A Transport Department spokesman said 10 extra ticket inspectors have been employed this year in a bid to stop fare dodgers in their tracks.

“Our public awareness campaign ‘FarePlayer’ and our unprecedented focus by police and revenue protection officers on fare evaders and anti-social behaviour, is having an impact,” the spokesman said.

Ful article : http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/messenger ... f0de79d301

[[Shuz]]

How can you possibly evade fares if the section between South Terrace and the Entertainment Centre is free?

[timtam20292]

They would do the checking between Glenelg and South Terrace.