News & Discussion: Trams

[[Shuz]]

$500m for a tram to the airport!?

I thought it was $500m for a Henley Beach line, with a spur to ADL airport, Grange, West Lakes, Port Adelaide, Semaphore and Outer Harbour.

[Goodsy]

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/majo ... 9cb2e5d674

So Downer has done their modeling and determined that they can turn a profit from operating that line. They should be told to shove it up their ass, that money belongs in the public coffers

So lets wait 50 years till the State can afford it?

If they want to invest $500m into the State let them.

If the airport link can turn a profit then that money should be spent subsidising other parts of the network.

Or the profits could be stuffed in the back pocket of Downer, who'll spend the money however they want. Which more than likely ends up stuffed in an overseas tax haven

[rubberman]

Here we go. Bring on that SA cant do attitude.

I guess the question is how much such a project should really cost? $500m seems a little over the top considering that the whole new tram system was planned at costing $1.5bn.

At that rate, the proposal is extremely expensive. Obviously if that figure included 15 years of operation that would be a different matter. I'd wait for the details.

[Waewick]

Here we go. Bring on that SA cant do attitude.

I guess the question is how much such a project should really cost? $500m seems a little over the top considering that the whole new tram system was planned at costing $1.5bn.

At that rate, the proposal is extremely expensive. Obviously if that figure included 15 years of operation that would be a different matter. I'd wait for the details.

Thats a fair call and that will be interesting.

I look at the proposal in the context of Adelaide Oval. If i said prior to the redevelopment that i wouldnt support the move if it meant having the most expensive food and drinks in the country for a stadium (which they are) i would have been howled down.

Now we have a private company considering investing money into the state and we are already complaining about the cost of tickets, how backwards could you be.

[Norman]

Now we have a private company considering investing money into the state and we are already complaining about the cost of tickets, how backwards could you be.

I could understand higher ticket prices if it was an express service and independent from the rest of the network (such as a monorail or dedicated train service), but a tram is different and must remain integrated in the existing network.

[Waewick]

Now we have a private company considering investing money into the state and we are already complaining about the cost of tickets, how backwards could you be.

I could understand higher ticket prices if it was an express service and independent from the rest of the network (such as a monorail or dedicated train service), but a tram is different and must remain integrated in the existing network.

The devil will be in the detail.

I think outside potential ticket prices the route detail is going to be more interesting.

[Norman]

Now we have a private company considering investing money into the state and we are already complaining about the cost of tickets, how backwards could you be.

I could understand higher ticket prices if it was an express service and independent from the rest of the network (such as a monorail or dedicated train service), but a tram is different and must remain integrated in the existing network.

The devil will be in the detail.

I think outside potential ticket prices the route detail is going to be more interesting.

The route is in the article.

The light-rail route would connect North Tce, West Tce, Henley Beach Rd and Airport Rd, becoming the biggest addition to Adelaide’s tram network since suburban lines other than Glenelg were ripped up by 1958.

That's the route the government has chosen in their AdeLink plan.

[Waewick]

I could understand higher ticket prices if it was an express service and independent from the rest of the network (such as a monorail or dedicated train service), but a tram is different and must remain integrated in the existing network.

The devil will be in the detail.

I think outside potential ticket prices the route detail is going to be more interesting.

The route is in the article.

The light-rail route would connect North Tce, West Tce, Henley Beach Rd and Airport Rd, becoming the biggest addition to Adelaide’s tram network since suburban lines other than Glenelg were ripped up by 1958.

That's the route the government has chosen in their AdeLink plan.

i was paying attention again i see. .

It will be interesting to see how the Government responds.

You would hope if they do accept it they'd invest in a different route at the same time.

[SBD]

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/majo ... 9cb2e5d674

Major firm Downer proposes $500 million light rail link between Adelaide CBD and Adelaide Airport
Paul Starick, Sunday Mail (SA)
December 16, 2017 8:30am
Subscriber only

A PRIVATELY funded 6km light-rail line linking Adelaide Airport to the city, costing up to $500 million, is being proposed by one of Australia’s largest companies.

...
Transport Minister Stephen Mullighan said the proposal would be assessed but would “need to offer something unique and innovative to progress”, while Adelaide Airport declared it was “supportive of an affordable light-rail service between the airport and Adelaide’s CBD”.

...
It is understood Downer, Australia’s largest light-rail operator, in a joint venture with French firm Keolis, hopes to make a financial return by operating the line as part of the Adelaide Metro network under a 30-year contract with the State Government.

Should talks with the Government be successful, Downer is proposing to start work after early next year finishing construction of the $80 million East End tram extension, which is being built in a joint venture with South Australian firm York Civil.

...
Mr Mullighan highlighted previous tram extensions to Adelaide Railway Station and the Entertainment Centre, saying the East End and Festival Plaza extensions were the first stages of lines to Norwood and North Adelaide, along with a City Loop.

He cast doubt over the Downer proposal’s viability, saying strict government policy was to preserve public ownership of trams and trains, because Liberal-led bus privatisation in the 1990s had caused lower patronage, service levels and reliability.

“The proposal would also mean separate tram operators, workforces, a separate tram fleet, all of which adds complexity, inefficiency and cost as opposed to all being centrally run and managed by the public,” he said.

“It is also unclear whether part of the funding model requires a new tax to be imposed on land owners along Henley Beach Rd, which the government would be opposed to.”
...

So Downer has done their modeling and determined that they can turn a profit from operating that line. They should be told to shove it up their ass, that money belongs in the public coffers

So lets wait 50 years till the State can afford it?

If they want to invest $500m into the State let them.

Seems like Downer is doing the Government's job for it, and the Transport Minister doesn't like being shown up!

Downer is proposing continued work so its workforce doesn't have to be let go, then a new one hired and trained a few months later when or if any of the other suburban routes get funded. This is the issue being faced for shipbuilding too.

Downer proposes "...part of the Adelaide Metro network..." and Mullighan sees "...separate tram operators, workforces, a separate tram fleet, all of which adds complexity, inefficiency and cost...". Don't we have several distinct bus operators with their own fleets and workforces all operating under the Adelaide Metro banner with minimal issues for the public? Is Mullighan scared that having a fleet of trams operated by a business that also builds trams will show up the quality of the government-owned ones?

Mullighan would have been better served by a politic "The state government welcomes private investment in South Australia. We will examine and consider this proposal over the next few weeks." with minimal embellishment!

[Norman]

The Adelaide bus transport system uses a 98% government owned fleet of buses. Only the drivers are privately contacted, and some operators own some depots.

[PeFe]

How does this new tram link (using batteries under stops instead of poles and wires) integrate with the current system?

What happens along North Terrace? Will all the current tram stops need to be refitted to accommodate this new technology?

Sydney's new tram lines are incompatible with the L1 built in the 1990's with traditional poles and wires. Neither the twain shall meet........

[SBD]

How does this new tram link (using batteries under stops instead of poles and wires) integrate with the current system?

What happens along North Terrace? Will all the current tram stops need to be refitted to accommodate this new technology?

Sydney's new tram lines are incompatible with the L1 built in the 1990's with traditional poles and wires. Neither the twain shall meet........

If the proposal goes ahead, we will find out, but my guess would be that the cheapest solution is to put a catenary on the top of each tram as well, a bit like there may be buses with guide wheels that don't ordinarily run on the O-bahn.

[ml69]

It’s not like even shopping within the centre is designed for shopping on foot. You see people often drive to one store, hop back in their car and drive to the other side to go to another shop.

Yep we do that there!

[Waewick]

So Downer has done their modeling and determined that they can turn a profit from operating that line. They should be told to shove it up their ass, that money belongs in the public coffers

So lets wait 50 years till the State can afford it?

If they want to invest $500m into the State let them.

Seems like Downer is doing the Government's job for it, and the Transport Minister doesn't like being shown up!

Downer is proposing continued work so its workforce doesn't have to be let go, then a new one hired and trained a few months later when or if any of the other suburban routes get funded. This is the issue being faced for shipbuilding too.

Downer proposes "...part of the Adelaide Metro network..." and Mullighan sees "...separate tram operators, workforces, a separate tram fleet, all of which adds complexity, inefficiency and cost...". Don't we have several distinct bus operators with their own fleets and workforces all operating under the Adelaide Metro banner with minimal issues for the public? Is Mullighan scared that having a fleet of trams operated by a business that also builds trams will show up the quality of the government-owned ones?

Mullighan would have been better served by a politic "The state government welcomes private investment in South Australia. We will examine and consider this proposal over the next few weeks." with minimal embellishment!

Probably still hurting from Gillman.

Wanting to look like they are atleast pretending to do due diligence.

[rubberman]

A few comments:

Historically, private tram operators have been spectacularly unsuccesful. The first tramway was private. Went broke. The early Melbourne companies, broke. Bendigo and Ballarat, broke. Brisbane, broke. So, a certain amount of skepticism is warranted.

Next, the price of $500m looks high. Downer is going to need to get that back. So, either we end up paying that. Or they go broke. See above. No alternative. Either we pay a higher price or they go broke. No other alternative.

Batteries. We've been hearing about batteries being "the nexr great thing" since The Julien Electric Patent battery car did demonstrations in Adelaide in the 1880s. The promoters of that and every other tram battery promoter in Australasia have gone broke. (NZ had one in Invercargill). Maybe the next one is "just around the corner" like they have been since the 1880s.

History says the Government is very prudent to exercise caution, and we would be well advised to hear ALL the details before forming any opinion.