News & Discussion: Trams

[Norman]

I agree that 4 trams are not enough. It's fine for the North Terrace extension, but not this.

I hope they have money for 1 more, they should start planning for stages so we know which one is next. Stop with the one election, one tram extension policy.

[rubberman]

I'm surprised by this as I would have thought the CBD loop which might have cost the same would have made more sense to Labor who are trying to snatch up the Adelaide electorate. Don't know how I feel about the incomplete extension to Norwood Place, though. Also, interesting that the artist impression shows centred stations...

Like others have said, this Norwood extension is purely for political purposes only. I know that is what election promises are all about, but I think it sucks.

For a similar spend of $280M, you could just about complete the city tram loop which would have massive benefits for the CBD in terms of expanding residential population, allowing convenient daily travel for workers, visitors and students through the city, and be a boon for tourists. There would be a massive injection of private investment in city apartments, increasing vibrancy.

A partly complete tram extension to Norwood will not achieve anywhere near the benefits of a completed CBD tram loop.

Eventually the Norwood tram should be done, but surely it's a lower priority.

Yep. The city loop also would have provided a convenient transfer point from the O-Bahn tunnel to both the North Terrace and Hutt St and beyond precincts, opening a lot of the CBD for development of a good type. I can't even begin to think what a half arsed extension to George Street will do. Then the Citadis. Bzzzt. Wrong. 10 years old, high track wear, loads of better trams about, likely cheaper and better laid out. Then centre platforms! Bad enough down Port Road, but in a congested Norwood Parade, centre platforms ensure that buses from further out (which is most of them) have to share with motorists. With side platforms, buses could be off the car lanes, and use the tramway as a busway.

This is a losing proposition for Labor. Marshall may well be now laughing all the way to the election. Labor just shot themselves in the foot here.

[SRW]

The business case for extensions to the suburbs may be stronger than for a city loop? Incorporating new catchments into the network rather than doubling down on an existing one? Completing the suburban extensions may likely lay the skeleton of a loop anyway? But that these are all open questions is a cross against Labor for keeping everything secret. Release the planning!

[Eurostar]

Tram depot should be built near Norwood could always use the parklands for that, unless they buy some land in Norwood. The On The Run service station in Norwood would be big enough to store trams.

[Algernon]

^Good work getting your quickie mart loving employer back into the conversation. What markup are you angling for on the land, 20%?

[Brucetiki]

The tram has some new announcements, this time it's a male voice (but different from the trains). It also now tells you in which direction the doors open. The tone is good and the announcements are clear. Unlike the trains, they got this one right.

Sounds similar to the Yarra Trams voice

[Will409]

Says will need 4 more new trams.

And where might these 4 "new " trams come from? Surely not 4 ex Madrid 10 year old stored trams?

The three Madrid trams that have recently arrived in Adelaide (150, 154, 155, now becoming 207, 208, 209) were the last unused Citadis trams available for acquisition from with the rest of the fleet now either running on various systems in Spain or one (153) in an unknown condition in Buenos Aires. A couple of months ago, I did a full list of all 70 Madrid Citadis cars.

Madrid Citadis car allocations:

Metro Ligero (lines ML1/ML2/ML3) - Madrid, Spain.
101-135 in service

Tranvía de Parla - Parla, Spain.
136-144 in service, renumbered 01-09.

Tranvía de Jaén - Jaén, Spain.
145-149 - sold to Jaén, renumbered 1-5.

Tranvía de Murcia - Murcia, Spain.
151-152, 156-164 - sold to Murcia, fleet retain Madrid road numbers.

Tranvía de Elste - Buenos Aires, Argentina.
153 - Stored in Buenos Aires, retains Madrid road numbers.

Adelaide Metro - Adelaide, Australia.
150, 154-155, 165-170 ex Madrid. Either in service or being prepared for service in the Adelaide 200 number series.

150 - 207, being prepared for Adelaide service.
154 - 208*, being prepared for Adelaide service.
155 - 209*, being prepared for Adelaide service.
165 - 201, in service.
166 - 202, in service.
167 - 203, in service.
168 - 204, in service.
169 - 205, in service.
170 - 206, in service.

I know no actual detail has been released but even with a bit of bit of quick math and rough calculations, the distances between recommended stop placements are are a bit inconsistent. From the East End stop to corner of East Terrace and Rundle Street is only 300m. From East Terrace to Rundle Road could be anywhere between 450m to 800m.

Then from Rundle Road to Sydneham Road could be anywhere between 850m to 1.2km. The distance between Sydneham Road to Osmond Terrace and Osmond Terrace to George Street is both 400m.

Stop distances in the CBD tend to average about 300-400m apart, which is fine for a CBD where there are lots of landmarks and key destinations to service. Good transport planning practice tends to suggest that 400m is the upper limit to how far the average person is prepared to walk to access a public transport service.

Therefore, it would be better off not to have another 'East End' stop at the Rundle Road / East Terrace because the catchment zone within a 400m radius of that stop is nearly identical to the catchment zone within 400m of the currently under construction East End stop.

For historical context, here is the list of tram stops on the original Kensington Gardens line on the section from Dequetteville Terrace to roughly the location of the proposed new terminus. The street names given are the ones from the period and some have been changed since. The original line ran through Rymill Park on a reserve track on an embankment which has now been dug up as part of the Obahn Tunnel.

- Dequetteville Terrace
- Stop 1 - Young and Rundle Streets
- Stop 2 - Pirie Street and Kent Road
- Stop 3 - Kent Terrace, Flinders Street and College Road
- Stop 4 - Charles Street
- Stop 5 - Sydenham Road
- Stop 6 - Wood and Elizabeth Streets (Norwood Oval siding)
- Stop 7 - Osmond Terrace
- Stop 8 - Edward Street
- Stop 9 - George Street (Norwood Town Hall)

[adelaide transport]

If Labor get back in,it will be interesting to see where they can find 4 new trams?

[rubberman]

If Labor get back in,it will be interesting to see where they can find 4 new trams?

The optimal plan would be to scour the world for the most suitable tram, whatever that is, and then buy those. Eventually, there will be forty or fifty more needed, so deciding on the best value for money tram type and then buying the number of trams required would make most sense. Nine Citadis trams in a fleet of sixty or more doesn't make much sense.

The Melbourne Flexitys are good, but expensive. Škoda, Pesa, and Stadler also have some very good offerings at decent prices. The Melbourne ones are very slow to come off the production line too. However, if we only need one a year, it might be advantageous.

[Norman]

Release the planning!

Yes! I too am sick and tired of the secrecy. They did the same with ITLUP, releasing it in the middle of the 2014 election campaign, meaning that it was hard to debate the policies and plans in that document during the media frenzy.

[Will409]

https://indaily.com.au/news/2018/02/26/ ... onnell-st/

Labor to promise tram extension to O'Connell St.
By David Washington.

NEWS
BREAKING | Labor's campaign push to restore Adelaide's tram network will take another step today with a promise to build an extension to O'Connell Street in North Adelaide.

Trams last trundled down O’Connell Street more than 60 years ago, but Labor wants to restore the transport option with a two-kilometre, $259 million “ProspectLink” extension.

Labor is promising four new stops: at Adelaide Oval, the Women’s and Children’s Hospital, Archer Street and the Piccadilly Cinema.

In the bigger picture, the extension will provide a direct link from North Adelaide to Glenelg, via the Oval, the Festival Centre and the other city stops.

Like the Norwood extension announced by Labor yesterday, trams are promised every 10 minutes with the free city tram zone expanded to include North Adelaide.

Labor is also pushing the tram extension as a way to boost the recent purchase of the long-vacant Le Cornu site on O’Connell Street by the Adelaide City Council, which was supported with $10 million from the State Government.

Labor insists funding for the extension will be factored into its post-election budget, but InDaily understands a further extension along Prospect Road would depend on federal funding.

A new tram stop is nearing completion outside the Festival Plaza, as part of new works which include an extension of the city tram network down North Terrace to the old Royal Adelaide Hospital site.

While an extension of the tram network was included in the State Government’s Integrated Transport and Land Use Plan in 2013 – and included in Labor’s 2014 election campaigning – there has been little action since.

The Government funded a multi-million-dollar study into the expansion of the trams network which Transport Minister Stephen Mullighan promised to release last year.

That study hasn’t yet been released in full, but the Government has produced documents on each of the proposed new routes for consultation.

Premier Jay Weatherill and Mullighan will announce the O’Connell Street extension later today.

Yesterday, Labor announced that trams would return to The Parade with a $279 million, five-stop extension terminating at Norwood Place, just south of George Street.

The Liberals have been equivocal, with leader Steven Marshall – the local MP for the Norwood-based seat of Dunstan – saying this morning that some people like trams, some don’t.

His transport spokesperson, David Pisoni, says Labor can’t be trusted to deliver.

“Announcing extensions of the tram network before an election and dropping them after the election is a parlour game Labor plays with the electorate,” he said.

“Before the 2014 state election, the Weatherill Labor Government ran taxpayer-funded political advertising promising PortLink, EastLink, WestLink, ProspectLink, UnleyLink and CityLink as part of a 30-year transport plan.

“In the four years since the Labor Government snuck back into power, they have delivered a one-kilometre extension down North Terrace that isn’t even finished and doesn’t include a right-hand turn onto North Terrace.”

more to come

[[Shuz]]

Says will need 4 more new trams.

And where might these 4 "new " trams come from? Surely not 4 ex Madrid 10 year old stored trams?

The three Madrid trams that have recently arrived in Adelaide (150, 154, 155, now becoming 207, 208, 209) were the last unused Citadis trams available for acquisition from with the rest of the fleet now either running on various systems in Spain or one (153) in an unknown condition in Buenos Aires. A couple of months ago, I did a full list of all 70 Madrid Citadis cars.

Interesting, at least we know it will have to be an entirely new make and model of tram to the Citadis and Flexitys. That means extra cost for new maintenance, parts, driver and engineer training to accomodate the new model. I'm of the understanding that's why they went with the ex-Madrid Citadis in the new extension, to save on these costs.

Glengowrie depot is full just about. A new depot will need to be built - question is where? I've mentioned before, I think the only feasible and cost effective solution is making the most of HousingSA (State Government owned land) at 8-36 Rundle Street, Kent Town and taking the opportunity to rezone and redevelop the entire site into higher density mixed use housing. A portion of the land could be reserved for a depot, a portion sold off for private investment (with daresay, little regulation to maximise land value capture , and the rest redeveloped as new HousingSA social accommodation. They would at least recoup some of the cost from the sale of some of the land to a private developer.

I don't think the $280m figure has factored in costs for a new depot or maintenance costs for new trams or possibly even labour hire. It seems like that's the cost for four new trams, the track, overhead and construction works to Norwood.

[rubberman]

And where might these 4 "new " trams come from? Surely not 4 ex Madrid 10 year old stored trams?

The three Madrid trams that have recently arrived in Adelaide (150, 154, 155, now becoming 207, 208, 209) were the last unused Citadis trams available for acquisition from with the rest of the fleet now either running on various systems in Spain or one (153) in an unknown condition in Buenos Aires. A couple of months ago, I did a full list of all 70 Madrid Citadis cars.

Interesting, at least we know it will have to be an entirely new make and model of tram to the Citadis and Flexitys. That means extra cost for new maintenance, parts, driver and engineer training to accomodate the new model. I'm of the understanding that's why they went with the ex-Madrid Citadis in the new extension, to save on these costs.

Glengowrie depot is full just about. A new depot will need to be built - question is where? I've mentioned before, I think the only feasible and cost effective solution is making the most of HousingSA (State Government owned land) at 8-36 Rundle Street, Kent Town and taking the opportunity to rezone and redevelop the entire site into higher density mixed use housing. A portion of the land could be reserved for a depot, a portion sold off for private investment (with daresay, little regulation to maximise land value capture , and the rest redeveloped as new HousingSA social accommodation. They would at least recoup some of the cost from the sale of some of the land to a private developer.

I don't think the $280m figure has factored in costs for a new depot or maintenance costs for new trams or possibly even labour hire. It seems like that's the cost for four new trams, the track, overhead and construction works to Norwood.

Personally, I think they should have gone for the Shuz Plan as previously proposed.

I think you are a little generous as to the reasons for choosing the Citadis in the first (and second) place. Initially, everyone was taken by surprise at the success of the extension to City West. They needed trams fast. The only real criterion was whether the trams could get here quickly. So, Madrid Citadis it was. Fair call. I am not aware of other trams being looked at, even if they were better laid out, less track wear or cheaper. The urgency was to get trams on the tracks in Adelaide asap. However, the second purchase of them is not so forgivable. It looks very much like the Government had some extra money saved from somewhere and at a very late stage told DPTI to "Go build a kilometre of tramline by the election!". Of course, that meant DPTI had no time (again) to do a proper analysis of the most suitable tram. They had to go out and grab what they could - another Citadis or three. Having said that, DPTI does have to shoulder a bit of the blame here. They should have known that the supply of Citadis was limited, so that the exercise in selecting a long term tram type should have been undertaken. If that had been done, then possibly a trial of two or three vehicles might have gotten them over the line in this case.

However, the reality is that the Citadis will eventually be a small minority tram type. With more modern and better laid out trams available for service, they will probably either be sold off, or if no suckers can be found, will be relegated to peak hours and special events.

Finally, the cost of $80m/kM for North Terrace was pretty high because of night working and a great big junction. If the Parade is done Melbourne style, and with no big junction, there should be something left over for depot expansion. But, we shall see. If Labor doesn't get in, we shall have to wait a further four years.

[rubberman]

I agree that 4 trams are not enough. It's fine for the North Terrace extension, but not this.

I hope they have money for 1 more, they should start planning for stages so we know which one is next. Stop with the one election, one tram extension policy.

I know I am going to sound a little boring here, so humble apologies in advance.

Most articulated trams on the market these days can have extra modules added to quickly increase capacity. So, it would be simple from the point of view of tram carrying capacity to achieve.

Similarly, stops with straight through tracks and side platforms are simple to extend without interruption to the service. Standard European practice is for stops to have space for two tram sets.

Of course, if there are centre island stops, they can't extend them easily without ripping up the tracks. If they can't extend the stops, they can't get longer trams. Oh dear. I guess we do have a problem then.

[AndyWelsh]

So was the need for trams quickly the reason trams built in Melbourne weren’t purchased?


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