News & Discussion: Trams

[rubberman]

How big would the tram network have to be to make the local construction of trams financially viable? I don't think it will be anywhere near there for years yet, but it's interesting to think about.

I was also interested to know why Adelaide didn't use the trams I've seen in Melbourne, that advertise as being built in Melbourne?

I think the issue was availability. The Melbourne E Class are being produced very slowly, and the Citadis were available straight away. I think the Melbourne trams are a lot more expensive too, but would defer to those who have better knowledge. Other than that, the Melbourne E Class is pretty good. Given how slowly our system is growing, it might fit in with their program, it's certainly an option were Adelaide to plan its tram acquisition strategically. And there's the problem.

[claybro]

I think the issue was availability. The Melbourne E Class are being produced very slowly, and the Citadis were available straight away. I think the Melbourne trams are a lot more expensive too, but would defer to those who have better knowledge. Other than that, the Melbourne E Class is pretty good. Given how slowly our system is growing, it might fit in with their program, it's certainly an option were Adelaide to plan its tram acquisition strategically. And there's the problem.

It really makes me wonder...there have been how many car manufacturing jobs lost in Vic and SA over the last decade? If Melbourne can barely keep up with their own supply of new trams, and more and more cities are rolling out new tram/light rail systems, why cant the SA and Vic governments get their heads together, and come up with a shared manufacturing operation in both Adelaide and Melbourne to speed up the output. A lot of Melbourne trams are approaching their use by dates, and all other states will be in the market for new trams, so can't at least SA state government set up a manufacturing operation based on even our own expected requirements? Sure, they will be more expensive than imports, but everything else about these new light rail systems in Australia seems to be done in the most expensive manner, so why not employ many hundreds of local workers to build our own trams?

[Ben]

The light posts look shocking. I really hope they are straightened up for completion and this is not the final placement.

[Kasey771]

The light posts look shocking. I really hope they are straightened up for completion and this is not the final placement.

I assume when the catenery is correctly tensioned the light poles will be perpendicular to the ground.


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[rubberman]

The light posts look shocking. I really hope they are straightened up for completion and this is not the final placement.

I assume when the catenery is correctly tensioned the light poles will be perpendicular to the ground.


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Fingers crossed, but if you look at the image, they haven't left much of the cross wire suspension to be eased out to achieve that.

[rubberman]

I think the issue was availability. The Melbourne E Class are being produced very slowly, and the Citadis were available straight away. I think the Melbourne trams are a lot more expensive too, but would defer to those who have better knowledge. Other than that, the Melbourne E Class is pretty good. Given how slowly our system is growing, it might fit in with their program, it's certainly an option were Adelaide to plan its tram acquisition strategically. And there's the problem.

It really makes me wonder...there have been how many car manufacturing jobs lost in Vic and SA over the last decade? If Melbourne can barely keep up with their own supply of new trams, and more and more cities are rolling out new tram/light rail systems, why cant the SA and Vic governments get their heads together, and come up with a shared manufacturing operation in both Adelaide and Melbourne to speed up the output. A lot of Melbourne trams are approaching their use by dates, and all other states will be in the market for new trams, so can't at least SA state government set up a manufacturing operation based on even our own expected requirements? Sure, they will be more expensive than imports, but everything else about these new light rail systems in Australia seems to be done in the most expensive manner, so why not employ many hundreds of local workers to build our own trams?

You'd need the cooperation of 4 states, the Feds and the ACT for that to happen.

Then there's the model adopted in a number of places of letting the contractors design, build and operate for thirty years or so. That means they go for trams that will just last that long, and if they screw up the track in thirty years vs fifty, not their problem. So, certain types of trams are favoured by the Build Own Operate Transfer procurement model as in Sydney, and other types, such as the Melbourne E Class are favoured by others. And as for getting Sydney to even acknowledge that Melbourne might have anything to offer, well good luck with that.

It's pretty sad really, considering the cooperation that used to happen historically.

I think the best option would be for the State government to order 40 or 50 trams for the new system, and encourage as much local participation as possible by making local component percentage as part of the assessment. That way, Bombardier might hasten their production and throw us some scraps, or some other manufacturer might set up here for that order size. However, if we are just ordering 4 or 5 trams every election cycle, we have to get what we can.

[mgb]

http://infrastructure.sa.gov.au/__data/ ... lowres.pdf

From the CityLINK report, page 8:

CityLINKOptions.JPG (94.24 KiB) Viewed 3141 times

Don't have time to read the whole report (it's 80 pages long) but the final route chosen seems to be a combination of the A and B options. Given that West Terrace down that way has a large section taken up with a car dealership and a cemetery I'm going to guess the Southmost part of West Tce was never considered as somewhere that a tram could add a lot of benefit.

edit: The report does go into fairly detailed analysis of the catchment zones for each of the route options which probably explain how they chose this final design.

I'm not sure where Indaily are getting their designs but in both cases their routes are none of the ones in the reports.

Why would they be looking at wasting a tram down West Terrace where the only businesses that are picked up are a bunch of car dealerships? With all the analysis the report goes into I can't see how the tram running down West Terrace meets any of the requirements.

To me Option A for the CitiLink is the best fit. Maybe there is an issue with the tram turning from Currie St into Morphett, but I can't see how that could be much different than the issue at Whitmore Sq?
At least running down Morphett St it is walkable from most parts of the very west side of town, you pickup the main office areas closer in, plus people on Gouger St have the option of either the ring route or the existing Victoria Sq stop.

If the designs are real then with the EastLINK tram they probably should run down Sydnenham instead of Osmond Tce. Sydnenham is a nice wide street with only a few houses. Mostly it is light industrial and a storage facility. Much less argument than trying to go down Osmond Tce.

The cynical in me almost thinks all this is Indaily being like a Murdoch publication and trying to create controversy.


mgb

[SRW]

Why not Carrington and Wright? Fewer awkward turns and still proximate. Narrower sure, but not hugely trafficked and carparks available elsewhere nearby.

[Kasey771]

My preferred Cityloop is North Tce - East Tce - Hutt St- Wakefield St - Victoria Square - Grote St - West Tce. The Grote St tracks could be used/continue to Sir Donald Bradman Drive to the airport. It covers Chinatown and has the widest streets. Anyone know if this was [or why it wasn't] considered? Also the Norwood route from Rundle St through Kent Town [via The Parade West - opp PAC] is a dog-legged, dogs breakfast. With the tram I expect them to remove all off street parking which will make things even worse for businesses/people around there. Is there any other better route/option to get from Rundle St to the Parade?

Do you mean ON-street parking? I've always thought it was an extravagent waste driven by our abundance of open space that we allow so many on street carparks on important thoroughfares.

[how good is he]

Yes sorry meant on street parking. Btw, I don't know how the "extravagant waste of open space" - I assume you mean the parklands, how it has an impact on on/off-street parking?
Can you elaborate on what you think is the correlation with carparking on thoroughfares/roads and open space/parklands?
With West Tce possibly it is being used for a Cityloop so the route can start/finish at the NRAH. It may mean the entertainment centre line could then be reduced to before & after 9 -5 M-F and weekends only. There is also Adelaide High on West Tce and possibly UniSA as another stop [Hindley St] as possible reasons.

[Nort]

Yes sorry meant on street parking. Btw, I don't know how the "extravagant waste of open space" - I assume you mean the parklands, how it has an impact on on/off-street parking?
Can you elaborate on what you think is the correlation with carparking on thoroughfares/roads and open space/parklands?
With West Tce possibly it is being used for a Cityloop so the route can start/finish at the NRAH. It may mean the entertainment centre line could then be reduced to before & after 9 -5 M-F and weekends only. There is also Adelaide High on West Tce and possibly UniSA as another stop [Hindley St] as possible reasons.

If you have street parking on a city street it is essentially two traffic lanes worth of space being taken up as storage space for personal vehicles.

if we imagine cars parked close together you could have 50 meters of road length being taken up entirely by 10 people. That's insane for a CBD.

[Kasey771]

Yes sorry meant on street parking. Btw, I don't know how the "extravagant waste of open space" - I assume you mean the parklands, how it has an impact on on/off-street parking?
Can you elaborate on what you think is the correlation with carparking on thoroughfares/roads and open space/parklands?
With West Tce possibly it is being used for a Cityloop so the route can start/finish at the NRAH. It may mean the entertainment centre line could then be reduced to before & after 9 -5 M-F and weekends only. There is also Adelaide High on West Tce and possibly UniSA as another stop [Hindley St] as possible reasons.

No I wasn't having a dig at the Parklands. I was saying we are a spread out city so we dont use our space as efficiently as we could. I think its a huge waste to have cars sitting idle out on the roadway when that could be taken away and in the same total roadway space you could add trams and a protected bikeway with 2 lanes of flowing traffic(assuming those lanes went on a small diet)
I think traffic lanes are far wider than they need to be and this fosters a perception of space that encourages speeding. Narrow the lanes and people will unconsciously feel encroached upon and slow down(just like they do on streets that have trees growing over head to form a leafy tunnel)

[Norman]

There are a lot of old houses without garages and car ports in the southern half of the city. Until the city magically creates a wonderful public transport system, on street car parks will need be provided to the people living in those homes.

[Kasey771]

There are a lot of old houses without garages and car ports in the southern half of the city. Until the city magically creates a wonderful public transport system, on street car parks will need be provided to the people living in those homes.

And that’s fair enough. I’m talking about roads that are main transport corridors like O’Connell St and Main North Road even the Parade.


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[Nort]

There are a lot of old houses without garages and car ports in the southern half of the city. Until the city magically creates a wonderful public transport system, on street car parks will need be provided to the people living in those homes.

For pre-existing residences I don't see anything wrong with having permit parking allocated. Long term however it simply isn't practical to have so many individual vehicles driven into and parked in the CBD.