News & Discussion: Trams

[how good is he]

Do you really think a multi-billion dollar tram network is needed? Let alone give a sufficient return/or be able to pay for itself including cost to maintain? Based on our small population, the relative ease of travel, the high usage/dependency on cars and the low density/wide population sprawl...I just can’t see it.

[citywatcher]

Do you really think a multi-billion dollar tram network is needed? Let alone give a sufficient return/or be able to pay for itself including cost to maintain? Based on our small population, the relative ease of travel, the high usage/dependency on cars and the low density/wide population sprawl...I just can’t see it.

Then you have no vision literally

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[how good is he]

I don’t think it’s a vision thing. I can’t see us hitting the critical mass of say a Melbourne to justify a similar network. Maybe in 20 years? I think the Gold Coast light rail is the best comparison to ours with similar attributes, population etc. It has just one line/route (like ours) to cater for the unis/hospitals/CBD/ convention centre/main shopping/retail/dining precincts/beach & ideal for tourists. Plus a connection to heavy rail and a future connection one day to the airport.

[Bob]

These are the summary of facts regarding Trams from a Liberal Party POV, I have consolidated their media statements and policy statements to brief notes for simplicity

To investigate the possibility of implementing a right hand turn from KWS to Nth Tce as soon as possible after the election.

Don’t see the need for trams to be extended beyond the parklands, i.e. City of Adelaide coverage only (Adelaide & North Adelaide).

City tram extensions on the list of the 10 major projects to be investigated by a new team named Infrastructure South Australia.

Infrastructure development on LeFevre Peninsula including light rail possibilities to serve shipbuilding activities at Osborne on the list of the 10 major projects to be investigated by same team.

That team will be a Board of no more than five members, including one independent chairperson and two industry experienced members responsible for strategic direction & planning of infrastructure.

The Board to be in place by Sept 2018 and develop a 20 year plan by the end of first term, i.e. by March 2022.

Fallout so far since the election

City tram extension has gone off the rails with issues already highlight in this forum and we still don’t know the ending – e.g. issues such as leaning poles, right hand turn etc

NPSP Council agreed in a council meeting during May 2018 that the redevelopment of The Parade will not include a tram line at any point in the future. As wider footpaths are on the agenda along with more carparks, it is possible the available road width may be narrowed even further through the heart of The Parade, we will await the final Masterplan due in Q3 18.

There was already confusion about the PA/OH route if heavy rail is to continue or if light rail would replace, but it is unsure if this fits into the LeFevre Peninsula major review item or not.

ACC bought 88 O’Connell NA for future development, not having clarity on the tram extension through NA potentially restricts the attraction to developers.

Probably more for the list but these concerns are off the top of my head.

[rubberman]

Do you really think a multi-billion dollar tram network is needed? Let alone give a sufficient return/or be able to pay for itself including cost to maintain? Based on our small population, the relative ease of travel, the high usage/dependency on cars and the low density/wide population sprawl...I just can’t see it.

I was talking in the context of the plans released by the former government for a complete system, and the comments by haso about politicians' responsibilities.

Obviously if we aren't going to build a system, we don’t need too much thought from the politicians. However, in that case, it gets left to agencies which cannot have the expertise to somehow muddle through as best they can. I don't mean that to be critical. Tramway engineering is a discipline all of its own, and if the system isn't big enough to justfy having the expertise in-house, then it's totally unreasonable to expect people to be instant experts in a field that's not their major competence.

[claybro]

Do you really think a multi-billion dollar tram network is needed? Let alone give a sufficient return/or be able to pay for itself including cost to maintain? Based on our small population, the relative ease of travel, the high usage/dependency on cars and the low density/wide population sprawl...I just can’t see it.

I was talking in the context of the plans released by the former government for a complete system, and the comments by haso about politicians' responsibilities.

Obviously if we aren't going to build a system, we don’t need too much thought from the politicians. However, in that case, it gets left to agencies which cannot have the expertise to somehow muddle through as best they can. I don't mean that to be critical. Tramway engineering is a discipline all of its own, and if the system isn't big enough to justfy having the expertise in-house, then it's totally unreasonable to expect people to be instant experts in a field that's not their major competence.

Agree. Adelaide runs public transport more like a regional city than a capital. Buses are always the go to option (cheap and easy). Most of the suburban public seem to think the trams are a waste of money....fair enough- but they also don't realise, that almost without noticing, the inner areas are becoming much more consolidated, and this will explode in the next 20 years, even at current growth. Buses will not cope (smaller vehicles-more of them-slower) , and Adelaide does not have enough heavy rail as it is. So...its either heavy rail and in the case of the Eastern suburbs- underground metro (never going to happen) or light rail. Some government is going to have to bite the bullet, and either sell the idea, or just push it through...which is what I believe Labor was attempting to do, just without the available funds or expertise.

[PeFe]

Adelaide runs public transport more like a regional city than a capital. Buses are always the go to option (cheap and easy).

Adelaide runs public transport......like a small city (and thank god we are not a small city in the US, where the best you can hope for is an adequate bus system, let alone anything running on steel rails)

Most of the suburban public seem to think the trams are a waste of money....

Well they seem to like it when they want to go from Rundle Mall to Victoria Square without walking......or from Adelaide railway station to the NRAH.

But I do agree that as the urban infill process speeds up, the general public will come to see the benefit of trams.

[claybro]

Adelaide runs public transport more like a regional city than a capital. Buses are always the go to option (cheap and easy).


Adelaide runs public transport......like a small city (and thank god we are not a small city in the US, where the best you can hope for is an adequate bus system, let alone anything running on steel rails)

Most of the suburban public seem to think the trams are a waste of money....

Well they seem to like it when they want to go from Rundle Mall to Victoria Square without walking......or from Adelaide railway station to the NRAH.

But I do agree that as the urban infill process speeds up the general public will come to see the benefit of trams.

Firstly, even by world standards, Adelaide is actually a fairly large city....its residents just think small. Also, I wonder how many people would opt for the tram from Rundle Mall to Vic sq if the actually had to pay for it?
Once again, I think trams/light rail are an ideal solution to a flat-mid sized city with wide roads like Adelaide-but I think it will take buses to be constantly at crush load, and gridlocked in city traffic, before people actually start embracing the trams as a viable option.

[Llessur2002]

Once again, I think trams/light rail are an ideal solution to a flat-mid sized city with wide roads like Adelaide-but I think it will take buses to be constantly at crush load, and gridlocked in city traffic, before people actually start embracing the trams as a viable option.

I suspect the vast majority of bus users would be very happy for their service to be replaced by a tram.

Anti-tram sentiment seems to be strongest in those who never use PT.

[Goodsy]

Once again, I think trams/light rail are an ideal solution to a flat-mid sized city with wide roads like Adelaide-but I think it will take buses to be constantly at crush load, and gridlocked in city traffic, before people actually start embracing the trams as a viable option.

I suspect the vast majority of bus users would be very happy for their service to be replaced by a tram.

Anti-tram sentiment seems to be strongest in those who never use PT.

that holds true for every form of public transport

[Llessur2002]

Once again, I think trams/light rail are an ideal solution to a flat-mid sized city with wide roads like Adelaide-but I think it will take buses to be constantly at crush load, and gridlocked in city traffic, before people actually start embracing the trams as a viable option.

I suspect the vast majority of bus users would be very happy for their service to be replaced by a tram.

Anti-tram sentiment seems to be strongest in those who never use PT.

that holds true for every form of public transport

Plus, presumably the only reason that buses are the least-contested form of PT is that the PT opponents view them as the transport mode least likely to have any detrimental impact on private vehicle movements.

The argument from Norwood residents against the proposed tram extension was that the area was 'perfectly well served by buses' - but I doubt many of those opposed to the tram have actually set foot on a bus more than a few times in their lives.

[[Shuz]]

Well my father who is a staunch Liberal that lives in Norwood, wants trams down the Parade. Thinks it's very short sighted of Marshall to rule it out and reckons is more of a vote winner than Marshall realises.

[claybro]

Well my father who is a staunch Liberal that lives in Norwood, wants trams down the Parade. Thinks it's very short sighted of Marshall to rule it out and reckons is more of a vote winner than Marshall realises.

Then Shuz, please get him to complain to the NPSP council, because they are complicit in this. They are doing their best to shut the proposal down for good.-Very gutless and short sighted.

[EBG]

It was not Marshall who ruled out trams on Norwood parade it was the residents last year. Everyone was all in favour of trams until they suddenly found out they would have to cut down the trees in the middle of the road so every one changed their minds and decided to keep the trees. This particular species of gum trees should not have been grown tie the centre of the road because they have heaved up the medium strip and the centre lanes to a large extent.

[Waewick]

Well my father who is a staunch Liberal that lives in Norwood, wants trams down the Parade. Thinks it's very short sighted of Marshall to rule it out and reckons is more of a vote winner than Marshall realises.

I'm not sure your father is the be all and end all of it, I'd say it is a 50/50 split of people who want and people who do not want and it is not as simple as people like to think.

There are traders who want it, to bring extra cliente and locals who want it to get into the city easily. But then there are traders who don't want it due to trees being cut down and brining the wrong type of clientele and also impact car/parking (its always about cars!) and locals who don't want it because it would ruin the feel of the Parade, extra people, worse parking etc etc.

I'm indifferent to it, I can see the benefits but understand the why some people don't see it