News & Discussion: Trams

[Ho Really]

[...]

There's a couple of questionss though. Most of the problems of this stage came after February/March. So was it K+M and mates or Marshall and Lucas?

[...]

Unequivocally previous government. Why? Because they wanted it finished before the election to score the points. Besides all the plans were already laid out and they selected the contractor. Marshall, etc., can only be blamed, if you want to blame them of course, for overseeing the repairs. The damage was there already unfortunately.

Cheers

[citywatcher]

What commitment has this govt shown to this project and finishing it off besides. None.

Cheers

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[Westside]

Guys, the main problem is simply timing. The last two expansions came at a time where not much else was happening in Australia in the world of light rail, so we pretty much got the cream of the crop working on the projects. In the past 12 months Australia is undertaking major projects in Sydney, Canberra, Gold Coast and Newcastle. So our piddly little extension gets what’s left. That’s pretty much the gist of it there just doesn’t seem to be enough know-how to go around at the moment, so we see errors and overruns appear more frequently than they should. Let’s just hope we aren’t the ones that have to pay top price for bottom of the barrel work.

[rubberman]

Guys, the main problem is simply timing. The last two expansions came at a time where not much else was happening in Australia in the world of light rail, so we pretty much got the cream of the crop working on the projects. In the past 12 months Australia is undertaking major projects in Sydney, Canberra, Gold Coast and Newcastle. So our piddly little extension gets what’s left. That’s pretty much the gist of it there just doesn’t seem to be enough know-how to go around at the moment, so we see errors and overruns appear more frequently than they should. Let’s just hope we aren’t the ones that have to pay top price for bottom of the barrel work.

I agree with the thrust of your argument, but I'd expand it a little without changing the principle. There's only so much tram expertise in the world, a lot going on, Melbourne lost a lot of expertise in the Kennett years and is still recovering. What is therefore happening is that many consultants just used heavy rail expertise, made it "lighter" and called themselves light rail experts. They've then done some very expensive work based on heavy rail principles, and now they are "experienced". Their expensive heavy rail based techniques are becoming embedded in Australian standard practice, making tram extensions hard to justify, other than as "vanity" projects, or as limited inner city lines where there's a vast number of commuters.

If what is happening in Sydney represents the cream of the crop, I rest my case for getting in overseas expertise. That is nothing short of a scandal, and has probably killed the chance of any further trams in Sydney ever. I cannot see a future NSW Government ever extending the system after this.

[adelaide transport]

In today's Sunday Mail a report on tenders for 400 new buses to replace ageing buses Transport Minister Stefan Knoll stated that plans for trams to North Adelaide had been scrapped.

[mawsonguy]

As they have cancelled the North Adelaide extension, does this not mean that the line to the Festival Theatre is a waste of money? It doesn't take Adelaide Oval patrons any closer to the main entrance than the stop at Adelaide Railway Station (545m v 560m). What is has done is cause traffic jams on KW St. It used to take me 5 min to get from KW bridge to Vic Square. Now it can take up to 35min in peak hour. Of course, I could use other routes but the ACC has reduced Frome Rd by 50% and Morphet St has been reduced from 3 to 2 lanes to provide for a drop off area at the Convention Centre (which I have never seen anyone use). (And, No, the nature of my job means I cannot use Public transport). Unfortunately, traffic congestion like this plays into the hands of the anti-tram lobby.

[timtam20292]

Just have to wait for Labor to get back in to power then. Hate this liberal state government with a passion.

[rev]

As they have cancelled the North Adelaide extension, does this not mean that the line to the Festival Theatre is a waste of money? It doesn't take Adelaide Oval patrons any closer to the main entrance than the stop at Adelaide Railway Station (545m v 560m). What is has done is cause traffic jams on KW St. It used to take me 5 min to get from KW bridge to Vic Square. Now it can take up to 35min in peak hour. Of course, I could use other routes but the ACC has reduced Frome Rd by 50% and Morphet St has been reduced from 3 to 2 lanes to provide for a drop off area at the Convention Centre (which I have never seen anyone use). (And, No, the nature of my job means I cannot use Public transport). Unfortunately, traffic congestion like this plays into the hands of the anti-tram lobby.

Well the way the feds are going, they wont win the next election in November 2019. We then have to wait till 2022 for our state election. Vote Labor, you'll get your tram extensions. One small extension at a time. It should have been a continuous flow of work, one stage after the next, not used as a political/election tool.

[Ho Really]

Just have to wait for Labor to get back in to power then. Hate this liberal state government with a passion.

timtam20292 your hate is misdirected. It should go to Labor for stuffing things up. The whole tram thing could've been done way better. The Libs are only doing their job balancing the books. Besides a tram system doesn't fall out of the sky. If you ain't got the money, you can't do. So let’s be patient on this subject. The Libs aren’t entirely against trams. Just look at the private proposal for the Airport Link. Perhaps you should contact Steven Marshall and ask him.

There’s one question I keep asking myself...does Adelaide really need trams? Yes and no. It all depends where to. Like the extension to the Festival Centre. If it wasn't going to go farther in the next 3-4 years what sense does it have? Why did Labor do this if they knew they couldn’t extend it to Prospect or wherever else they wanted it to go? Surely not up Memorial Drive to Bowden? This piece of track will be there just like the one-way-at-a-time expressway that took years to complete. A pain in the arse!

Well the way the feds are going, they wont win the next election in November 2019. We then have to wait till 2022 for our state election. Vote Labor, you'll get your tram extensions. One small extension at a time. It should have been a continuous flow of work, one stage after the next, not used as a political/election tool.

That's our problem, it's used as a political and election tool. All of SA should be working together on a visionary PT transport system that encompasses not just Adelaide but the whole state. And no it doesn't necessarily have to be all about trams.

Cheers

[Brucetiki]

In today's Sunday Mail a report on tenders for 400 new buses to replace ageing buses Transport Minister Stefan Knoll stated that plans for trams to North Adelaide had been scrapped.

400 buses that are likely to be sitting in depots collecting dust because of the mass cuts to bus services Knoll wants.

Also, it would be nice if Scania are black listed from the tenders (though I'm sure Knoll could find something much worse). Also assuming none of these buses will be electric/green buses given the 'coal is king' attitude of the Liberal Party.

[rubberman]

Just have to wait for Labor to get back in to power then. Hate this liberal state government with a passion.

Why? Is it the government's fault that the extension was too expensive?

Now maybe if the ALP gets into power in Canberra, they will have much more sympathy for trams. But since we voted out the ALP in SA, we won't have the same party in Canberra and SA till 2022 at least. But that was our choice as voters. It seems to me that there's zero point in getting angry at the present SA Government. It was quite clear before the election about what it was going to do as far as trams were concerned, and that was a perfectly reasonable policy. Only do it if it stacked up economically.

We got where we are now through two things: a reasonable policy endorsed at the ballot box, and a waaay too expensive project. Why blame the government for chopping it?

[rubberman]

[...]

There's a couple of questionss though. Most of the problems of this stage came after February/March. So was it K+M and mates or Marshall and Lucas?

[...]

Unequivocally previous government. Why? Because they wanted it finished before the election to score the points. Besides all the plans were already laid out and they selected the contractor. Marshall, etc., can only be blamed, if you want to blame them of course, for overseeing the repairs. The damage was there already unfortunately.

Cheers

Looking at the project from the outside, but with a fair bit of personal project management experience, this looks very much like they lost their project manager around March. If you look at progress in the first 6 months, vs the last 6 months it's chalk and cheese.

First six months:

Services located and relocated.
Track laid.
Complex crossing installed.
Overhead installed.
Stop construction started.

Second six months:

Four stops completed.
Signals completed.

Where the government IS liable is to ensure that DPTI has engaged a competent project manager.

Mind you, I admit this is a guess. But look at the lists of what was accomplished in those two time frames. I hope you can agree at least that it looks suspicious.

[The Scooter Guy]

I am expecting this to be open to public 'tween now and the end of this month!

[Algernon]

Guys, the main problem is simply timing. The last two expansions came at a time where not much else was happening in Australia in the world of light rail, so we pretty much got the cream of the crop working on the projects. In the past 12 months Australia is undertaking major projects in Sydney, Canberra, Gold Coast and Newcastle. So our piddly little extension gets what’s left. That’s pretty much the gist of it there just doesn’t seem to be enough know-how to go around at the moment, so we see errors and overruns appear more frequently than they should. Let’s just hope we aren’t the ones that have to pay top price for bottom of the barrel work.

I agree with the thrust of your argument, but I'd expand it a little without changing the principle. There's only so much tram expertise in the world, a lot going on, Melbourne lost a lot of expertise in the Kennett years and is still recovering. What is therefore happening is that many consultants just used heavy rail expertise, made it "lighter" and called themselves light rail experts. They've then done some very expensive work based on heavy rail principles, and now they are "experienced". Their expensive heavy rail based techniques are becoming embedded in Australian standard practice, making tram extensions hard to justify, other than as "vanity" projects, or as limited inner city lines where there's a vast number of commuters.

If what is happening in Sydney represents the cream of the crop, I rest my case for getting in overseas expertise. That is nothing short of a scandal, and has probably killed the chance of any further trams in Sydney ever. I cannot see a future NSW Government ever extending the system after this.

They need to come to Prague and Brno and see the extent of tram development that goes on in the summer months. In Brno they just completed something that utterly shits on the north terrace extension - digging up and relaying a line from Ceska to Namesti Svobody. They get this stuff done in a matter of weeks, not like these jokers. It's embarrassing.

[Goodsy]

They need to come to Prague and Brno and see the extent of tram development that goes on in the summer months. In Brno they just completed something that utterly shits on the north terrace extension - digging up and relaying a line from Ceska to Namesti Svobody. They get this stuff done in a matter of weeks, not like these jokers. It's embarrassing.

Does that work go out to tender, and then get picked up by the lowest bidder who hires the cheapest labour or does it get done by the agency who runs the tramline