[COM] Memorial Drive upgrade

[Algernon]

I think the Lille concept IS thinking pretty big! Realistically, does anyone seriously think we are going to get a new indoor arena plus a new rectangular stadium, especially when the rectangular stadium is used about 10 times per year?

The combined concept is the ONLY possibility of soccer getting a state-of-the-art stadium. The other realistic alternative is a new indoor arena and Coopers Stadium basically remaining as it is now.

The chances of this going ahead would depend on getting the FIFA women's world cup. I don't think we're much chance of winning it, and we're actually teetering on the edge of being booted from international football if the FFA EGM on October 2 doesn't pass the congress reforms mandated by FIFA.

In the current HAL format, Adelaide United hosts 27 regular season games per 2 years. There's potential for more - HAL finals, Asian Champions League, and FFA Cup. Also, after mooted HAL expansion occurs next season that number may change again. It's a bit more than 10. It justifies the need for having Hindmarsh in its current configuration, nothing bigger. They would only go larger for this world cup bid. The stadium is also used for one off NRL games and NPL finals, but the latter doesn't warrant more than a few thousand seats.

The only other factor to consider would be that Hindmarsh is now approaching 20 years of age. Structurally she's sound, but stadiums typically need a refresh of sorts in their amenity far before the structure itself expires. It's the best HAL venue in many respects, but amenity wise it's falling behind.

Speaking of the A League, here's what's proposed for Western Melbourne in their bid for an expansion license.




So..if successful, Melbourne will have two purpose built rectangular stadiums, light years ahead of Hindmarsh/Coopers, but you guys keep telling your selves that Hindmarsh/Coopers is the best soccer stadium in Australia, it just needs a refresh.

There are 8 bidders vying for a license with only 2 of them to be accepted in this round, and there are also massive doubts the already delayed expansion process will go ahead next season due to the congress issues at FFA.

If the Wyndham stadium were to be built it would be the model for the league not just for its design, but also the economic model. They'd literally be the first HAL club to embrace the model used in football around the world of an owner occupier having full use and control of their stadium. If they were approved for a license it'd be a huge leap for the sport. I have my doubts about them though. At this stage it's a club that doesn't exist in a stadium that isn't built in a part of Melbourne that doesn't exist yet. So yeah, today (or yesterday) on the day I'm making the comment that Hindmarsh is the best, it is. It exists. Some of the more respectable journos believe that Team 11 will be the Melbourne bid chosen over WMG and South Melbourne. Their stadium is proposed for the South East and is quite impressive as well.

IMO, Western Sydney Stadium will be the best stadium in the country when it's completed in March, because of the rake on the stands has you right on top of the action.

Melbourne Rectangular has its flaws. There's a bit of a contradiction in your comment of it being purpose built. It's not. Being rectangular doesn't make you purpose built. Sydney Football Stadium is rectangular but can accommodate rugby union with full sized in goal areas. For soccer it puts you some 30m away from the goal line - you can literally fill that space with an olympic swimming pool. MRS isn't as bad - it can accommodate rugby union but not with maximum sized in goals. Hindmarsh actually is purpose built for soccer - rugby union can't be played there, and rugby league barely squeezes on it. You're so close to the action that it's the envy of the other clubs fans who play on rugby grounds, and that's why Adelaide is the most popular interstate away trip destination for fans in the league.

I'll keep telling myself Hindmarsh just needs a refresh because it's true

[ml69]

Hindmarsh actually is purpose built for soccer - rugby union can't be played there, and rugby league barely squeezes on it. You're so close to the action that it's the envy of the other clubs fans who play on rugby grounds, and that's why Adelaide is the most popular interstate away trip destination for fans in the league.

If that's the case (and I have no reason to doubt it), imagine the tourist benefits of an increased number of fans coming to town if soccer was played in a new boutique, state-of-the-art stadium in the riverbank precinct? Same pitch size as Hindmarsh, but with more contemporary spectator facilities.

[rev]

There are 8 bidders vying for a license with only 2 of them to be accepted in this round, and there are also massive doubts the already delayed expansion process will go ahead next season due to the congress issues at FFA.

If the Wyndham stadium were to be built it would be the model for the league not just for its design, but also the economic model. They'd literally be the first HAL club to embrace the model used in football around the world of an owner occupier having full use and control of their stadium. If they were approved for a license it'd be a huge leap for the sport. I have my doubts about them though. At this stage it's a club that doesn't exist in a stadium that isn't built in a part of Melbourne that doesn't exist yet. So yeah, today (or yesterday) on the day I'm making the comment that Hindmarsh is the best, it is. It exists. Some of the more respectable journos believe that Team 11 will be the Melbourne bid chosen over WMG and South Melbourne. Their stadium is proposed for the South East and is quite impressive as well.

IMO, Western Sydney Stadium will be the best stadium in the country when it's completed in March, because of the rake on the stands has you right on top of the action.

Melbourne Rectangular has its flaws. There's a bit of a contradiction in your comment of it being purpose built. It's not. Being rectangular doesn't make you purpose built. Sydney Football Stadium is rectangular but can accommodate rugby union with full sized in goal areas. For soccer it puts you some 30m away from the goal line - you can literally fill that space with an olympic swimming pool. MRS isn't as bad - it can accommodate rugby union but not with maximum sized in goals. Hindmarsh actually is purpose built for soccer - rugby union can't be played there, and rugby league barely squeezes on it. You're so close to the action that it's the envy of the other clubs fans who play on rugby grounds, and that's why Adelaide is the most popular interstate away trip destination for fans in the league.

I'll keep telling myself Hindmarsh just needs a refresh because it's true

So you're saying that AAMI Park, which was built as the home ground for the Victory and Storm, isn't a purpose built rectangular stadium to host Soccer and Rugby?

I think you'll find Hindmarsh can accommodate Union and League.
Hindmarsh field size 120 x 80 metres...

Rugby Union requirements..120-144m in length by 68m width.
Rugby League requirements..112–122m in lenth by 68m width.

The Rams played NRL there, and the Black Falcons played National div 2 union there.

I know Hindmarsh was purpose built for soccer back in the 60s.
The problem is it's a shit location which doesn't allow for expansion and allow for the proper infrastructure surrounding a stadium, and it's a shit stadium overall.
A new multi-purpose facility in the city is needed. Be it next to Adelaide Oval or somewhere else in the parklands surrounding the city.
Sure it might need a refresh, but we need the sport to grow. It's not going to grow at Hindmarsh, refresh or no refresh.
Look what AFL at a redeveloped Adelaide Oval has done for both AFL clubs, and the city on weekends when there's a match on.
It's not just about the antiquated parochial south aussie views of the wannabe ultras who attend Hindmarsh.
Moving the major codes into the city, in new stadiums, with extensive transport links into the suburbs, will create a more vibrant city.
Having modern stadia and facilities will allow Adelaide to host major international events.
It's about the big picture, not the small parochial picture that most South Australians still hold on to.
This whole AAMI Park is shit, has flaws, which stems mainly from the anti Vic bias of people in this state, is ridiculous. AAMI Park hosted a major international event, the Asian Cup, which the FFA overlooked your superior Hindmarsh as a host venue. We aren't even competing with Melbourne. They've long surpasses us, as has Perth. We are in a league of our own far behind the other major cities, and if things don't pick up quickly, we will be challenged by the smaller regional cities which are growing.

Here's the new 25,000 capacity stadium being built in Townsville...



And as you said the new stadium for the Wanderers in Parramatta...30,000 capacity.



What we need in South Australia is a mentality refresh.

[Brucetiki]

Another issue is - would the 36ers and Thunderbirds want to move from their current locations?

The reason TSA was built in the first place was so basketball didn't have to share a venue with concerts (and the scheduling clashes that come with it).

[crawf]

Another issue is - would the 36ers and Thunderbirds want to move from their current locations?

The reason TSA was built in the first place was so basketball didn't have to share a venue with concerts (and the scheduling clashes that come with it).

Seems to work well in Perth with their city arena.

[ml69]

Another issue is - would the 36ers and Thunderbirds want to move from their current locations?

The reason TSA was built in the first place was so basketball didn't have to share a venue with concerts (and the scheduling clashes that come with it).

Talk to them.

I think Basketball may change its tune given the success of AFL in the city.

Even netball must surely be interested ... I think the only issue is if the new arena charged them a fortune for the privilege of playing there (ie not economically viable).

[Algernon]

There are 8 bidders vying for a license with only 2 of them to be accepted in this round, and there are also massive doubts the already delayed expansion process will go ahead next season due to the congress issues at FFA.

If the Wyndham stadium were to be built it would be the model for the league not just for its design, but also the economic model. They'd literally be the first HAL club to embrace the model used in football around the world of an owner occupier having full use and control of their stadium. If they were approved for a license it'd be a huge leap for the sport. I have my doubts about them though. At this stage it's a club that doesn't exist in a stadium that isn't built in a part of Melbourne that doesn't exist yet. So yeah, today (or yesterday) on the day I'm making the comment that Hindmarsh is the best, it is. It exists. Some of the more respectable journos believe that Team 11 will be the Melbourne bid chosen over WMG and South Melbourne. Their stadium is proposed for the South East and is quite impressive as well.

IMO, Western Sydney Stadium will be the best stadium in the country when it's completed in March, because of the rake on the stands has you right on top of the action.

Melbourne Rectangular has its flaws. There's a bit of a contradiction in your comment of it being purpose built. It's not. Being rectangular doesn't make you purpose built. Sydney Football Stadium is rectangular but can accommodate rugby union with full sized in goal areas. For soccer it puts you some 30m away from the goal line - you can literally fill that space with an olympic swimming pool. MRS isn't as bad - it can accommodate rugby union but not with maximum sized in goals. Hindmarsh actually is purpose built for soccer - rugby union can't be played there, and rugby league barely squeezes on it. You're so close to the action that it's the envy of the other clubs fans who play on rugby grounds, and that's why Adelaide is the most popular interstate away trip destination for fans in the league.

I'll keep telling myself Hindmarsh just needs a refresh because it's true

So you're saying that AAMI Park, which was built as the home ground for the Victory and Storm, isn't a purpose built rectangular stadium to host Soccer and Rugby?

I think you'll find Hindmarsh can accommodate Union and League.
Hindmarsh field size 120 x 80 metres...

Rugby Union requirements..120-144m in length by 68m width.
Rugby League requirements..112–122m in lenth by 68m width.

The Rams played NRL there, and the Black Falcons played National div 2 union there.

I know Hindmarsh was purpose built for soccer back in the 60s.
The problem is it's a shit location which doesn't allow for expansion and allow for the proper infrastructure surrounding a stadium, and it's a shit stadium overall.
A new multi-purpose facility in the city is needed. Be it next to Adelaide Oval or somewhere else in the parklands surrounding the city.
Sure it might need a refresh, but we need the sport to grow. It's not going to grow at Hindmarsh, refresh or no refresh.
Look what AFL at a redeveloped Adelaide Oval has done for both AFL clubs, and the city on weekends when there's a match on.
It's not just about the antiquated parochial south aussie views of the wannabe ultras who attend Hindmarsh.
Moving the major codes into the city, in new stadiums, with extensive transport links into the suburbs, will create a more vibrant city.
Having modern stadia and facilities will allow Adelaide to host major international events.
It's about the big picture, not the small parochial picture that most South Australians still hold on to.
This whole AAMI Park is shit, has flaws, which stems mainly from the anti Vic bias of people in this state, is ridiculous. AAMI Park hosted a major international event, the Asian Cup, which the FFA overlooked your superior Hindmarsh as a host venue. We aren't even competing with Melbourne. They've long surpasses us, as has Perth. We are in a league of our own far behind the other major cities, and if things don't pick up quickly, we will be challenged by the smaller regional cities which are growing.

Here's the new 25,000 capacity stadium being built in Townsville...



And as you said the new stadium for the Wanderers in Parramatta...30,000 capacity.



What we need in South Australia is a mentality refresh.

On the point of debating the merit of building a new stadium through the lens of Adelaide Oval's success, these are really different scenarios. The best example isn't Adelaide Oval, but rather Hindmarsh Stadium itself and what transpired with its redevelopment.

Hindmarsh was redeveloped specifically for the Olympic football tournament. Before that it was an NSL venue with two tenants - Adelaide City and West Adelaide. It wasn't a great venue, but in the days of the NSL where the sport was almost entirely semi-professional, it was fit for purpose and still one of the better venues in the league - maybe only behind a small group of stadiums such as Edensor and Marconi Stadium, and certainly ahead of the likes of Perry Park, Somers "Slummers" Street, Morwell and Perth Oval. In this era the NSL average ranged from around 4-6k. Adelaide City was quite well supported, with crowds hitting close to the 10k mark for derby matches. They were cosy affairs at Hindmarsh. A new stadium would have been nice, but it was fit for purpose; a semi professional league. As a kid I remember the first real consideration given to redeveloping Hindmarsh came when City hosted the NSL final against Melbourne Knights (with a young kid by the name of Mark Viduka). The temporary stands from the grand prix were erected around the ground and made for a fantastic advertisement for the game. It was a one off, like NSL grand finals were in those days - a rare packed stadium, beamed nation wide on television network nobody watched because it wasn't in English and you needed a 10m tall aerial to get reception.

So, the idea was put forward much as this new proposal is being put forward: build a new stadium so we don't miss out on a major tournament, tick. It will have new amenity and we probably do need something new, tick. It will benefit the game immediately, tick.

What happened?

2 teams that never averaged more than half of the capacity of the new venue, Adelaide City and West Adelaide crashed out of the national league. From memory, West Adelaide lasted 2, maybe 3 seasons, then crashed so hard they withdrew from the league and operated as a junior club until resurfacing some 15 years later. Adelaide City held on longer, however owner Bob D'Otavi complained about the running costs every day and threatened to take the club to Norwood Oval. They went into a death spiral and ended up at Oakden as a local league team. The stadium development itself ended up in a parliamentary enquiry. None of the benefits came to fruition, and it all came down to the same problem with what is being proposed; what we had at the time was good enough, and what was being built delivered its benefits for a month long tournament, then what was left over was too expensive for the prospective tenants.

[ml69]

Here's the new 25,000 capacity stadium being built in Townsville...

White, horseshoe-shaped stadium, next to a river with a curved bridge .... looks rather familiar

[claybro]

So we all agree that
1. Hindmarsh is a bit tired.
2. We need to attract more top level rugby in a more suitable venue.
3. Basketball venue also limited and tired, poorly located.
4. All sports would benefit from an inner city location to better market and grow.
So with 3 major sports- soccer rugby and basketball, and also tennis and netball, is there not space to build a rectangular stadium, whilst simultaneously upgrading memorial drive as part of the same complex? Will it not all fit? Can it not be partially funded by the sale of Hindmarsh? Surely such a venue would be used by multiple thousands every week of the year?

[Algernon]

So we all agree that
1. Hindmarsh is a bit tired.
2. We need to attract more top level rugby in a more suitable venue.
3. Basketball venue also limited and tired, poorly located.
4. All sports would benefit from an inner city location to better market and grow.
So with 3 major sports- soccer rugby and basketball, and also tennis and netball, is there not space to build a rectangular stadium, whilst simultaneously upgrading memorial drive as part of the same complex? Will it not all fit? Can it not be partially funded by the sale of Hindmarsh? Surely such a venue would be used by multiple thousands every week of the year?

No?

[ChillyPhilly]

I'm not a fan of a multi-purpose ground. As an Adelaide United member and supporter who's been on many away trips and seen the pros and cons of different stadiums, I'm a big fan of an improved stadium for the club. But there are a couple catches.

This is the keyword that is crucial - 'club'. Hindmarsh Stadium IS 100% the best purpose-built football stadium in the country, and has the best viewing as well - there is literally no bad seat in the house (unlike AAMI Park/Melbourne Rectangular Stadium). It has the best viewing because it was built as an exhibition stadium in a 1999 upgrade, rather than a club stadium with corporate facilities to match. Nowadays, the club remains interested in gaining ownership or at least management of the ground; it runs at a loss for the Adelaide Entertainments Corporation, but AUFC would be capable of running it at a profit. Stadium hire is one of AUFC's biggest expenses. I can't recall the precise figure but I think hire for a match is now around $64,000 per game, well up from the $16,000 it cost back in 2010 for the 2010-11 season.

My general line of thinking is that Hindmarsh has the physical capacity for upgrades to existing stands etc, and could well be supported with a urban gentrification of the surrounding area once Bowden is complete. The eastern stand can be upgraded and corporate facilities can be incorporated into expanded northern and southern tiers with corners filled in, adding around 5000 or more to existing capacity (and of course a roof, which would be fantastic for both spectator comfort and atmosphere). I also believe that detailed plans to expand to 22k capacity exist, but doubt they'll see the light for the forseeable future. To that effect, I give Hindmarsh a remaining useful life of anywhere between 20 and 30 years before it will be outgrown and a move will be necessary.

If Hindmarsh is to be sold off for housing, it would be worthwhile and unique to follow what Arsenal did for their former stadium in Highbury, London, below. The envelope of the pitch and stands have been retained, but apartments built in their place.





When the time comes, the best location is probably right next to Adelaide Oval. Demolish the lot and restructure it, close War Memorial Drive if needed. Anywhere west of Montefiore Road is a no-go, it's a public transport black hole, located too immediately far from any real amenity. The plot twist here is that (IIRC) ICC regulations state that Test cricket venues must have a pitch for training right next to the relevant stadium.

[Algernon]

Interesting discussion ^. I don't think much of what was done with Highbury is achievable with Hindmarsh. The main impetus for retaining the ground, beyond its significance to Arsenal's history, was the need to retain the art deco facades of the East and West Stands. I'm not across the detail as to how the structures were converted, but I would presume they retained a the roof and facade then removed the graded seating areas and built the apartments within those structures? That's not doable with Hindmarsh - it has no roof or facade on 3 sides! That said, never thought I'd see Highbury in this sort of discussion, but it's always welcome in discussing the international experience because there are some pretty good cultural and economic perspectives on stadium design abroad which represent great learning opportunities.

[how good is he]

While I fully support a new stadium and arena the proposed sale/demand for the Ent Centre as a shopping centre site and/or Hindmarsh stadium for housing is questionable. I believe the sale price for both would be neglible/well short of the money needed to pay for a new stadium/arena and its probably better off keeping them even if a new stadium/arena is built.

[rev]

There are 8 bidders vying for a license with only 2 of them to be accepted in this round, and there are also massive doubts the already delayed expansion process will go ahead next season due to the congress issues at FFA.

If the Wyndham stadium were to be built it would be the model for the league not just for its design, but also the economic model. They'd literally be the first HAL club to embrace the model used in football around the world of an owner occupier having full use and control of their stadium. If they were approved for a license it'd be a huge leap for the sport. I have my doubts about them though. At this stage it's a club that doesn't exist in a stadium that isn't built in a part of Melbourne that doesn't exist yet. So yeah, today (or yesterday) on the day I'm making the comment that Hindmarsh is the best, it is. It exists. Some of the more respectable journos believe that Team 11 will be the Melbourne bid chosen over WMG and South Melbourne. Their stadium is proposed for the South East and is quite impressive as well.

IMO, Western Sydney Stadium will be the best stadium in the country when it's completed in March, because of the rake on the stands has you right on top of the action.

Melbourne Rectangular has its flaws. There's a bit of a contradiction in your comment of it being purpose built. It's not. Being rectangular doesn't make you purpose built. Sydney Football Stadium is rectangular but can accommodate rugby union with full sized in goal areas. For soccer it puts you some 30m away from the goal line - you can literally fill that space with an olympic swimming pool. MRS isn't as bad - it can accommodate rugby union but not with maximum sized in goals. Hindmarsh actually is purpose built for soccer - rugby union can't be played there, and rugby league barely squeezes on it. You're so close to the action that it's the envy of the other clubs fans who play on rugby grounds, and that's why Adelaide is the most popular interstate away trip destination for fans in the league.

I'll keep telling myself Hindmarsh just needs a refresh because it's true

So you're saying that AAMI Park, which was built as the home ground for the Victory and Storm, isn't a purpose built rectangular stadium to host Soccer and Rugby?

I think you'll find Hindmarsh can accommodate Union and League.
Hindmarsh field size 120 x 80 metres...

Rugby Union requirements..120-144m in length by 68m width.
Rugby League requirements..112–122m in lenth by 68m width.

The Rams played NRL there, and the Black Falcons played National div 2 union there.

I know Hindmarsh was purpose built for soccer back in the 60s.
The problem is it's a shit location which doesn't allow for expansion and allow for the proper infrastructure surrounding a stadium, and it's a shit stadium overall.
A new multi-purpose facility in the city is needed. Be it next to Adelaide Oval or somewhere else in the parklands surrounding the city.
Sure it might need a refresh, but we need the sport to grow. It's not going to grow at Hindmarsh, refresh or no refresh.
Look what AFL at a redeveloped Adelaide Oval has done for both AFL clubs, and the city on weekends when there's a match on.
It's not just about the antiquated parochial south aussie views of the wannabe ultras who attend Hindmarsh.
Moving the major codes into the city, in new stadiums, with extensive transport links into the suburbs, will create a more vibrant city.
Having modern stadia and facilities will allow Adelaide to host major international events.
It's about the big picture, not the small parochial picture that most South Australians still hold on to.
This whole AAMI Park is shit, has flaws, which stems mainly from the anti Vic bias of people in this state, is ridiculous. AAMI Park hosted a major international event, the Asian Cup, which the FFA overlooked your superior Hindmarsh as a host venue. We aren't even competing with Melbourne. They've long surpasses us, as has Perth. We are in a league of our own far behind the other major cities, and if things don't pick up quickly, we will be challenged by the smaller regional cities which are growing.

Here's the new 25,000 capacity stadium being built in Townsville...



And as you said the new stadium for the Wanderers in Parramatta...30,000 capacity.



What we need in South Australia is a mentality refresh.

On the point of debating the merit of building a new stadium through the lens of Adelaide Oval's success, these are really different scenarios. The best example isn't Adelaide Oval, but rather Hindmarsh Stadium itself and what transpired with its redevelopment.

Hindmarsh was redeveloped specifically for the Olympic football tournament. Before that it was an NSL venue with two tenants - Adelaide City and West Adelaide. It wasn't a great venue, but in the days of the NSL where the sport was almost entirely semi-professional, it was fit for purpose and still one of the better venues in the league - maybe only behind a small group of stadiums such as Edensor and Marconi Stadium, and certainly ahead of the likes of Perry Park, Somers "Slummers" Street, Morwell and Perth Oval. In this era the NSL average ranged from around 4-6k. Adelaide City was quite well supported, with crowds hitting close to the 10k mark for derby matches. They were cosy affairs at Hindmarsh. A new stadium would have been nice, but it was fit for purpose; a semi professional league. As a kid I remember the first real consideration given to redeveloping Hindmarsh came when City hosted the NSL final against Melbourne Knights (with a young kid by the name of Mark Viduka). The temporary stands from the grand prix were erected around the ground and made for a fantastic advertisement for the game. It was a one off, like NSL grand finals were in those days - a rare packed stadium, beamed nation wide on television network nobody watched because it wasn't in English and you needed a 10m tall aerial to get reception.

So, the idea was put forward much as this new proposal is being put forward: build a new stadium so we don't miss out on a major tournament, tick. It will have new amenity and we probably do need something new, tick. It will benefit the game immediately, tick.

What happened?

2 teams that never averaged more than half of the capacity of the new venue, Adelaide City and West Adelaide crashed out of the national league. From memory, West Adelaide lasted 2, maybe 3 seasons, then crashed so hard they withdrew from the league and operated as a junior club until resurfacing some 15 years later. Adelaide City held on longer, however owner Bob D'Otavi complained about the running costs every day and threatened to take the club to Norwood Oval. They went into a death spiral and ended up at Oakden as a local league team. The stadium development itself ended up in a parliamentary enquiry. None of the benefits came to fruition, and it all came down to the same problem with what is being proposed; what we had at the time was good enough, and what was being built delivered its benefits for a month long tournament, then what was left over was too expensive for the prospective tenants.

Hindmarsh is shit.

[rhino]

I could be wrong here, but it seems to me that the people who attend soccer matches at Hindmarsh have no problem with the stadium or it's location, but the people who don't attend soccer matches think we would be better off spending megadollars and building a multi-sport venue at what they consider a better site, that if they are honest, they will probably never go to anyway.