News & Discussion: Trams

[rubberman]

Whoa!

Hang on a bit. I don't think the councillors' idea is quite so bad that everyone needs to pile on.

They aren't arguing about the turn restriction where the stop is, and having stops split on each side of the intersection is hardly controversial - Adelaide did that as standard previously, as did most cities with trams. As for other intersections, why not use right turn arrows, synchronised with the trams' approach?

Accommodating what they want doesn’t seem the least bit challenging or expensive, nor is it particularly unreasonable.

As I've pointed out before, Melbourne practice on track like this would be to grind the rail surface, cut out sections of concrete over a weekend, pack grout under the rail and replace the concrete. Millions on rail replacement seem like overkill. Plenty of money to be saved it seems to me.

[HeapsGood]

Is it really necessary to ban 6 right hand turns to allow for 'disability access and replace the tracks in the southern half of the street'?

[Llessur2002]

Is it really necessary to ban 6 right hand turns to allow for 'disability access and replace the tracks in the southern half of the street'?

Anything that helps improve the sometimes diabolical tram speed between South Terrace and Rundle Mall is fine by me

[rubberman]

Is it really necessary to ban 6 right hand turns to allow for 'disability access and replace the tracks in the southern half of the street'?

Anything that helps improve the sometimes diabolical tram speed between South Terrace and Rundle Mall is fine by me

Yeah, but how hard are right turn arrows? Plus repair of the concrete round the rails instead of speed restrictions. Cheap, quick and effective. I mean they could do right turn arrows within a week or so if they wanted to. Concrete repairs over the next weekend. It's not rocket science.

[Llessur2002]

Yeah, but how hard are right turn arrows? Plus repair of the concrete round the rails instead of speed restrictions. Cheap, quick and effective. I mean they could do right turn arrows within a week or so if they wanted to. Concrete repairs over the next weekend. It's not rocket science.

Presumably you'd need a dedicated right turn lane if there were to be right turn arrows, otherwise waiting cars would impede the North-South traffic flow. Presumably there's not room for that given the proposed streetscape improvements - cycle path etc.

[rubberman]

Yeah, but how hard are right turn arrows? Plus repair of the concrete round the rails instead of speed restrictions. Cheap, quick and effective. I mean they could do right turn arrows within a week or so if they wanted to. Concrete repairs over the next weekend. It's not rocket science.

Presumably you'd need a dedicated right turn lane if there were to be right turn arrows, otherwise waiting cars would impede the North-South traffic flow. Presumably there's not room for that given the proposed streetscape improvements - cycle path etc.

Not really. If you had a right turn arrow cycle that was tram activated, the right arrow would turn green and any cars in front of the tram would clear off out of the way. This is pretty easy to program into traffic light controllers these days. Certainly when we are talking millions for the upgrade, it's peanuts. Further, if it were possible to satisfactorily patch up the track (I've crossed the road there plenty of times, and the rails are not worn), then the savings in that alone would pay for a lot of other maintenance. (For example, grinding noisy corrugations out, or building up curves being worn by the Citadis in Vic Square - worth a look btw)

[mshagg]

Not really. If you had a right turn arrow cycle that was tram activated, the right arrow would turn green and any cars in front of the tram would clear off out of the way. This is pretty easy to program into traffic light controllers these days.

And if there's trams approaching from either direction? I can see the solution working OK on south terrace where it's really only the right hand turn onto the westbound stretch that impedes the tram, but still, I'm not sure you've thought this through.

Preventing a tram full of commuters from being up by an undoubtedly single occupant vehicle is a pretty reasonable starting point. With that in mind I would have thought a simpler compromise would be to prohibit using the lane, including for right hand turns, between 7-7 Mon-Fri, similar to the bus lanes. That said I've very little sympathy for motorists who get things their way 99.9999% of the time and Knoll's proposal is a minor inconvenience.

[rubberman]

Not really. If you had a right turn arrow cycle that was tram activated, the right arrow would turn green and any cars in front of the tram would clear off out of the way. This is pretty easy to program into traffic light controllers these days.

And if there's trams approaching from either direction? I can see the solution working OK on south terrace where it's really only the right hand turn onto the westbound stretch that impedes the tram, but still, I'm not sure you've thought this through.

Preventing a tram full of commuters from being up by an undoubtedly single occupant vehicle is a pretty reasonable starting point. With that in mind I would have thought a simpler compromise would be to prohibit using the lane, including for right hand turns, between 7-7 Mon-Fri, similar to the bus lanes. That said I've very little sympathy for motorists who get things their way 99.9999% of the time and Knoll's proposal is a minor inconvenience.

I'm not sure what the difficulty of right arrows is. Perhaps you could explain why it wouldn't work? They're everywhere in the city. So what if trams approach from both direction? What are you seeing as the difficulty. I'll also point out that this is a pretty common strategy in Europe where the streets are far narrower. So, if the use of arrows coordinated with trams works in Europe to clear cars from intersections in front of trams, what's the problem? Yes, the logic to be programmed into the light controller is a bit tricky, but perhaps DPTI might like to ask some European operators. Having said that, I'm pretty sure the DPTI people could do it without much problem.

[claybro]

Not really. If you had a right turn arrow cycle that was tram activated, the right arrow would turn green and any cars in front of the tram would clear off out of the way. This is pretty easy to program into traffic light controllers these days.

And if there's trams approaching from either direction? I can see the solution working OK on south terrace where it's really only the right hand turn onto the westbound stretch that impedes the tram, but still, I'm not sure you've thought this through.

Preventing a tram full of commuters from being up by an undoubtedly single occupant vehicle is a pretty reasonable starting point. With that in mind I would have thought a simpler compromise would be to prohibit using the lane, including for right hand turns, between 7-7 Mon-Fri, similar to the bus lanes. That said I've very little sympathy for motorists who get things their way 99.9999% of the time and Knoll's proposal is a minor inconvenience.

I'm not sure what the difficulty of right arrows is. Perhaps you could explain why it wouldn't work? They're everywhere in the city. So what if trams approach from both direction? What are you seeing as the difficulty. I'll also point out that this is a pretty common strategy in Europe where the streets are far narrower. So, if the use of arrows coordinated with trams works in Europe to clear cars from intersections in front of trams, what's the problem? Yes, the logic to be programmed into the light controller is a bit tricky, but perhaps DPTI might like to ask some European operators. Having said that, I'm pretty sure the DPTI people could do it without much problem.

Agree. This is a complete storm in a teacup. KWS in this section is never congested. The right turn lights will as you point out clear the intersection of traffic in front of the trams, and the tram frequency is not such that it will create any great holdup for oncoming traffic lanes when cars are turning right with their respective lights. If two trams approach from opposite directions at once, then obviously it will need to be timed so one turn happens prior to the other-rather than the same time at a standard intersection, but not really a big deal.

[Llessur2002]

So, if I'm reading Rubberman's post correctly, if two trams approach an intersection at the same time then the right turn arrows will be activated in order to clear cars already waiting to turn right from the tram tracks. But, at some point the arrows will need to become red again to prevent turning cars from crossing one of the oncoming trams' path - presumably with a several second delay before the trams' arrival at the intersection for safety. So what is to stop a car entering the right turn lane during this delay period, stopping at the red arrow and thus holding up a tram full of people for a whole lights cycle? This is Adelaide after all - cutting in front of other vehicles regardless of the situation is apparently an acceptable driving style.

[rubberman]

So, if I'm reading Rubberman's post correctly, if two trams approach an intersection at the same time then the right turn arrows will be activated in order to clear cars already waiting to turn right from the tram tracks. But, at some point the arrows will need to become red again to prevent turning cars from crossing one of the oncoming trams' path - presumably with a several second delay before the trams' arrival at the intersection for safety. So what is to stop a car entering the right turn lane during this delay period, stopping at the red arrow and thus holding up a tram full of people for a whole lights cycle? This is Adelaide after all - cutting in front of other vehicles regardless of the situation is apparently an acceptable driving style.

A few random thoughts. First, no matter how idiot proof you make something, some idiot will outsmart you. For example, I've seen idiots veering right from an inside lane to then turn right across the traffic. However, I wouldn't say that was a reason for saying two lanes plus a right turn lane was a bad idea. Next, cities overseas are able to use arrows in this situation (and maybe Melbourne, but I haven't taken notice there), so it must be possible. Finally, traffic light controls are sophisticated enough to handle complex logic. So, for example. Trams approach the intersection, that triggers out of cycle green arrows in front of them via transponder/induction loop set back from the intersection. Then, when both trams get to the intersection proper, another loop sets arrows to red and the tram direction to green. In that scenario, if the idiot driver cuts in front before the tram gets to the intersection, it's still green arrow. The only time there's a problem is if the idiot cuts across after the lights have changed. Well, by my observation, there's no combination of lights or lanes or both that will stop that sort of idiot. Hence cameras and police.

[claybro]

What we seem to forget, is that there is not a single problem relating to trams v cars that has not been encountered and successfully addressed somewhere in the world in the last 100 odd years. Why we imagine that Adelaide, with its wide roads, relatively light traffic, and over engineered tram system has some special set of issues...well it is almost amusing.

[SBD]

Which side of the tram will the platform/boarding area be for the new/reconfigured stops? Which side of the intersection? Does trying to do everything result in a car driving on the tram tracks to turn right, with the platform on its left? Have I missed something obvious?

[rubberman]

Which side of the tram will the platform/boarding area be for the new/reconfigured stops? Which side of the intersection? Does trying to do everything result in a car driving on the tram tracks to turn right, with the platform on its left? Have I missed something obvious?

My belief is that the councillors accepted that right turn arrows were not appropriate at that intersection. The artist's impression shows a tram stop that looks like those along North Terrace East. That is, side platforms. The stop is shown completely to the South of the intersection. Of course, the final design and an artistic impression might look different.

Of course, one cannot rule out a motor vehicle driver attempting the manoeuvre you described.

[I Follow PAFC]

Getting so piss off can't use the City South tram stop as I am in a wheelchair.