Ideas for a greater public transport system

[Will409]

Thanks that also answered what was to be my next question about converting the current rail cars to electic powered.
I didnt think that was possible.

It's very possible as they're diesel-electric. The engine you can hear does nothing but run a generator. You take out the engine and generator, bolt on a couple of pantographs and Bob's your uncle. Well, it is a bit more involved than that, but it is possible.

I think that the models (2000's? ) that use the powercars can't be converted without going to a lot of trouble as they have a hydraulic drive or something, which is why the engine revs up when they move. I don't think there's any traction power in the end carriages as they are very quiet. In the other models (3000's?) the engine stays at a constant rev.

I'm just guessing at that though, I'm sure one of our rail buffs will correct me if I'm wrong

The 2000 class power cars are indeed diesel hydraulic. If you have a look at the underframe, you may be able to see a cardan shaft from the torque convertor going to the bogies. Both axles have a gear box mounted and another cardan shaft between the two. To allow for both axles to be driven (the Redhens while being hydraulic also, had only the inner most axles powered), the 2000s have a 'segemented pivot' allowing the shaft to pass through. I reado somewhere that the 2000 class (Jumbos as railfans know them) were also designed to allow for electric conversion but the amount of work needed compared to the 3000 class (poxboxs, also named by railfans) would make it unfeasible. The 2100 class trailer cars only have airconditioning equipment on the underframe so that is why they are so quiet except for the constant thumping on the tyres caused by over powerful brakes.

Another issue perhaps not realised at the time the 2000s were introduced (1980) was the issue of standardisation. At that time, all of the Adelaide rail system, both passenger and freight, was on the broad gauge of 5' 3". In 1982, the standard gauge line from Port Pirie was built. Now, the 2000 class have very solid bogies which are not fabricated but are a solid casting. at a rough guess, in operational order, they probably weigh 2-4 tonnes each! Being a solid casting, they are next to impossible to gauge convert.

As I have already said, the 3000 series were based very heavily on the Melbourne Comeng fleet with similar bogies, bodies and interiors. They do indeed have constant revving engines (except when they misfire!) It would be fair to assume that they have the same traction motors and control equipment as the Comengs which are obviously electric. All this effort was made in standardising the two designs, well actually copy and modify one of them (!), so we can convert without much effort. Unlike the 2000 class, it would be possible to gauge convert to standard gauge on the 3000s. Only one bogie has traction motors while the other has none so it would be even easier! Just need to fit a pantograph and the correct leads and we are in business theoretically. I'll be in Melbourne for a week in Decemeber so I'll be able to have agander at the rail fleet there and report back here.

[jimmy_2486]

geez wil409 are u a mechanical engineer?

[Will409]

Studying Certificate 1 in Automotive at the moment and also have design drawings from 1979 of the 2000 class power cars from the original manufacturer in a folder somewhere! Similar stuff with the Redhens. Plenty of observations over the past couple of years also.

I also heard this somewhere which I hold true. "To a railfan, no explanation is neccessary but to you however, no explanation is possible!"

[AtD]

What benefits would standardisation bring us, considering we only have a few standard gauge lines, most of the rural lines are broad gauge, Victoria runs on broad gauge, and broad gauge allows faster, heavier trains? I understand with interstate trains, but why bother with suburbans?

[Will409]

Most of our rural lines are not broad gauge for a start. The only two lines in all of South Australia that still carry freight into the 'country side' are to Roseworthy and Penrice in the Barossa Valley. The Roseworthy branch isn't exactly in a healthy state either with possible closure being mooted. The lines north to Burra and Balaklava were closed early last year. We currently have only 60kms or so of broad gauge in rural areas. The only strong hold out of broad gauge in SA is the suburban system. This is comparison to the standard gauge system in SA.

In 1995, the Adelaide-Melbourne mainline was converted from broad to standard. As well as the mainline, several branches were converted as well, those being:
-Monarto South - Apamurra (now closed because of the poor condition of the track)
-Tailem Bend - Pinnaroo
-Tailem Bend - Karoonda - Tookyerta (just south of Loxton)

These branch lines alone count for something like 300-500kms of track.

The arguments for broad gauge that you listed Atd were the same ones used by Isambard Kingdom Brunel back when he laid out the Great Western Railway. The track gauge he used was 7' wide. It was possible to argue those points back then because the locomotives used in England at the time (1830s) were still rather small and light. When introduced the GWR locos were easily the largest and fastest. As the years went on, the GWR suffered financial problems throughout the 19th century until 1892. In 1892 after several years or prepriatory work, the entire system was converted to standard gauge. The financial problems were caused by the broad gauge itself. It mean having to tranship all freight from one wagon to another and passengers had to break their journey to change trains. This need for changing gauge has always been a strangle hold on Australian railways dating back more then 150 years.

The broad gauge that we use is 5' 3", only 6.5" wider then standard gauge. If you have a look at the dual gauge sections of track between Dry Creek and Port Adelaide, you will see that the gap is not all to great. Today, it is possible to switch stock from gauge to gauge by changing the bogies around. Most of the locos and rollingstock that you see on the broad gauge system has been used on standard gauge at some point. The difference between the two gauges doesn't make any difference to the weight or length of trains now. To maintain services, GWA who run the broad gauge freight trains here has to maintain a small dedicated fleet of locos and rollingstock to haul what little load there is offering. Only one train a day is run to the limestone quarry in the Barossa. If you are lucky, you will also see a grain train to Roseworthy. It does cost a lot to keep such a small fleet which most of the time sits around doing nothing isolated by gauge. If a uniform gauge was used, then better use could be made.

So what does this mean for suburban services? To take standard gauge track, you need to upgrade what we already have. To make the conversion process easier, gauge convertable concrete sleepers are used. Victoria when they announced the RFR project (Regional Fast Rail) were planning of also using gauge convertable sleepers but in the end, cost savings needed to be made so they cheaped out and got broad gauge concrete sleepers that can't be converted. Here, we have the chance to convert. So, we get better quality track. We also have the possibility to extend services outwards on existing standard gauge freight lines. Industries that are also close to suburban lines may also be able to export goods by rail. Holdens had a siding to the Gawler Central line that saw cars shipped out across the country by rail. The entire Tonsely line was built with the purpose of serving the then Chrysler plant and had a once daily shunt train at one point serving the plant. Standardisation of the mainlines cut these and other industries from rail. Standardisation of the suburban system may be able to put more freight onto rail and off the city roads.

The difference in track gauge is more of a hinderence then a help.

[rhino]

Breaking Idea!

On the Noarlunga line, where it adjoins the Belair line at Sasmee Park - a new rail line could go underground straight through up past Goodwood Rd, deviating east under Arthur Street, and deviating north at Unley Oval to run under George Street and onto Hutt Street (CBD) deviating again west after Rundle Street and under the North Terrace Cultural Precient through to the Adelaide Railway Station, at a length of 7.4km.

Thoughts?

I think this idea would work far better with light rail than with heavy rail. Other than that, it has merit.

[SRW]

Most of our rural lines are not broad gauge for a start. The only two lines in all of South Australia that still carry freight into the 'country side' are to Roseworthy and Penrice in the Barossa Valley. The Roseworthy branch isn't exactly in a healthy state either with possible closure being mooted. The lines north to Burra and Balaklava were closed early last year. We currently have only 60kms or so of broad gauge in rural areas. The only strong hold out of broad gauge in SA is the suburban system. This is comparison to the standard gauge system in SA.

In 1995, the Adelaide-Melbourne mainline was converted from broad to standard. As well as the mainline, several branches were converted as well, those being:
-Monarto South - Apamurra (now closed because of the poor condition of the track)
-Tailem Bend - Pinnaroo
-Tailem Bend - Karoonda - Tookyerta (just south of Loxton)

These branch lines alone count for something like 300-500kms of track.

The arguments for broad gauge that you listed Atd were the same ones used by Isambard Kingdom Brunel back when he laid out the Great Western Railway. The track gauge he used was 7' wide. It was possible to argue those points back then because the locomotives used in England at the time (1830s) were still rather small and light. When introduced the GWR locos were easily the largest and fastest. As the years went on, the GWR suffered financial problems throughout the 19th century until 1892. In 1892 after several years or prepriatory work, the entire system was converted to standard gauge. The financial problems were caused by the broad gauge itself. It mean having to tranship all freight from one wagon to another and passengers had to break their journey to change trains. This need for changing gauge has always been a strangle hold on Australian railways dating back more then 150 years.

The broad gauge that we use is 5' 3", only 6.5" wider then standard gauge. If you have a look at the dual gauge sections of track between Dry Creek and Port Adelaide, you will see that the gap is not all to great. Today, it is possible to switch stock from gauge to gauge by changing the bogies around. Most of the locos and rollingstock that you see on the broad gauge system has been used on standard gauge at some point. The difference between the two gauges doesn't make any difference to the weight or length of trains now. To maintain services, GWA who run the broad gauge freight trains here has to maintain a small dedicated fleet of locos and rollingstock to haul what little load there is offering. Only one train a day is run to the limestone quarry in the Barossa. If you are lucky, you will also see a grain train to Roseworthy. It does cost a lot to keep such a small fleet which most of the time sits around doing nothing isolated by gauge. If a uniform gauge was used, then better use could be made.

So what does this mean for suburban services? To take standard gauge track, you need to upgrade what we already have. To make the conversion process easier, gauge convertable concrete sleepers are used. Victoria when they announced the RFR project (Regional Fast Rail) were planning of also using gauge convertable sleepers but in the end, cost savings needed to be made so they cheaped out and got broad gauge concrete sleepers that can't be converted. Here, we have the chance to convert. So, we get better quality track. We also have the possibility to extend services outwards on existing standard gauge freight lines. Industries that are also close to suburban lines may also be able to export goods by rail. Holdens had a siding to the Gawler Central line that saw cars shipped out across the country by rail. The entire Tonsely line was built with the purpose of serving the then Chrysler plant and had a once daily shunt train at one point serving the plant. Standardisation of the mainlines cut these and other industries from rail. Standardisation of the suburban system may be able to put more freight onto rail and off the city roads.

The difference in track gauge is more of a hinderence then a help.

Very well put, Will.

[Norman]

Speaking of tracks, when I was in Germany they were in the process of upgrading all their tram/subway routes from an old tram to a new tram. Because the older tram was narrow-gauge and the new ones are standard-gauge (allowed the new trams to be wider and able to carry more people) they added a third rail to the track, which made it possible for both the new and the old trams to run on the track.

It's taken them almost 20 years for them to upgrade their entire network, but the current system includes a lot more tunnels and underground stations to reduce traffic congestion. They also expanded some of the routes. They are currently working on their final route to be replaced, but are seeking to expand their tram services to more outer suburbs in 2010.

Currently they are also slowly removing the inner rail from the narrow gauge, and converting their wooden sleepers to concrete sleepers.

Below are a few pictures of the track, including grass -beded track, dual-gauge track and standard-gauge track. There are also a few pictures of the upgrade of the final route.

[Norman]

... and the upgrade pics, with the old tram in there as well. The view is from a tempoary stop while the new stop next to the road is being completed.

Do note that the new tram is accessible only via a platform, while the old one was accessible from the street level, although you had to climb up the stairs to get on. The new ones are therefor wheelchair accessible.

[rhino]

What city is that Norman?

[Norman]

What city is that Norman?

Stuttgart. You can read up more about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_Stadtbahn

[Cruise]

can electric trains be powered through the rails or something like that? because overhead lines are friggin ugly (on trams to)

[Will409]

You wouldn't want to step on the the rail then if it was electrified with current in both rails (zzzttttt!). It is however possible to lay a third rail that carries the power. One only has to look at the former Southern Region of the former British Rail to see it in action. Works a treat and a tad cheaper to lay.

[rhino]

You wouldn't want to step on the the rail then if it was electrified with current in both rails (zzzttttt!). It is however possible to lay a third rail that carries the power. One only has to look at the former Southern Region of the former British Rail to see it in action. Works a treat and a tad cheaper to lay.

It will probably work better in Adelaide than it does in Kent, where it gets snowed on and the trains don't run! Heard some great stories from an old friend who relied on that corridor to get to work in London, and was 2 hours late on several occasions. Bosses just accepted it, because there was nothing they could do about it.

[jk1237]

yeah when I briefly lived in London i noticed virtually all trains around London and SE England had no overhead lines, but were run by a third rail on the side for electricity. This included the London underground, and the normal suburban lines, and some short intercities such as to Brighton and Margate. However, the only way for this to happen is for total grade separation to road traffic and pedestrians. Obviously, you cant walk or drive over tracks that have a live electric rail. I lived in a south London suburb called Beckenham Junc, which was serviced by a typical suburban train, and my station had the Eurostar trains roar past constantly. The Eurostars had a overhead 'thingo' conductor for when they were in France and Belgium, but in UK they used the ground level 3rd rail, by a little arm that used to stick out and glide just above the rail. It could change sides also. I think the Eurostar has a new route now but I will never forget the noise it made when you wait on a platform and it rushes past at about 80km no more than a metre away from you. It was like a jumbo jet. However the noise from those old intercity 125's was so scary if anyone has ever been to Ealing Broadway Station in west London, where they would whiz past at over 120km with a diesel engine, while people are walking on the platforms, interchanging between tube trains. The noise was deafening.
In respect to Adelaide, one thing I couldn't believe was how many 1 carriage diesel passenger trains ran around England. It felt like home. I mainly saw them for suburban services around Birmingham, Manchester and down in Cornwall.