[VIS] Passenger Trains to Mount Barker

[Spotto]

Since discussions about passenger trains to Mount Barker and realigning the freight line surfaces semi-regularly, instead of derailing discussions about the current network in the Adelaide Metro Trains topic, I figured we could continue future discussion here.

A public forum is being held tonight at 7pm by the SA Transport Action Group which will discuss passenger rail through the Hills and traffic on the South Eastern Freeway. Apparently it's also going to be live-streamed by The Advertiser.

Hills and eastern suburbs transport forum to be live streamed by The Advertiser from 7pm on Tuesday
The Adelaide Hills region, and Mt Barker in particular, is growing at a rapid rate. But is there the political will to boost infrastructure and services to keep up?
Lydia Kellner

ADELAIDE Hills resid­ents face uncertainty over future transport options – regardless of who wins the next state election.

Neither the Liberals, Labor nor the Greens have committed any big-ticket items to help address traffic woes in the Hills in the lead- up to the March election.

That’s despite the region’s growing transport pain coming under the spotlight at a public meeting in Mount Barker tonight.

The SA Transport Action Group will host the forum at Wallis Cinema to discuss a range of ideas, including the reintroduction of passenger rail, congestion issues on the South Eastern Freeway and the potential for a road and rail bypass.

It is the first community meeting of its kind and will be exclusively live streamed by The Advertiser and The Adelaide Hills News from 7pm on advertiser.com.au.

It will be attended by representatives from all levels of government, including Mayo MP Rebekha Sharkie (Centre Alliance), Kavel MP Dan Cregan (Liberal), Waite MP Sam Duluk (independent), Frome MP Geoff Brock (independent) and opposition transport spokesman Tom Koutsantonis.

Mr Koutsantonis said on Monday the state government’s announcement on committing to a $10m South Eastern Freeway freight bypass was “nothing but a con”.

He said the business case would not address congestion if it were to go ahead – but did not offer any alternative plan in the event Labor was to win office next year.

“The last time the Liberals promised a freight bypass solution, they called it GlobeLink – and it was spectacularly dumped when they got into government,” Mr Koutsantonis said.

“The Marshall Liberal government keeps promising business cases but has a terrible track record when it comes to delivering real infrastructure projects.

“After being conned before the last election, Hills residents want real solutions, not more expensive business cases that will be dumped as soon as the next election is over.”

Greens MLC Robert Simms, who will also be in attendance, said public transport would form an important part of his party’s election campaign.

While he would not disclose details, he said public transport needed to become more accessible.

“One of the things in the Hills is that the service is really inadequate as there hasn’t been any investment from the government over the years, and we’d really like to see that changed,” Mr Simms said.

“The other element is the Covid pandemic. We need to make sure that people still use public transport. One of the ways to do that is to make sure you have improved frequency and coverage of service to make it easier for people to socially distance.

“If you have an irregular and unreliable service, people aren’t going to want to use it, So, it’s going to be a big part of our election campaign.”

Meanwhile, the government has ruled out passenger rail from the Adelaide Hills to the city.

Transport Minister Corey Wingard said construction of a rail line between Mount Barker and the CBD was too expensive.

“A rail link is not financially viable and the excessive costs wouldn’t be the best use of the limited taxpayer dollars compared with other infrastructure priorities,” he said.

Mr Wingard said the government was investing in road projects to get more freight off the freeway.

Adelaide Hills Transport Forum to be live streamed

Fed up with freeway chaos and heavy trucks destroying Hills roads?

A public meeting will be held at Mt Barker this Tuesday to discuss the growing transport issues faced by Hills and eastern suburbs commuters.

And the event will be exclusively live streamed here by The Advertiser and The Adelaide Hills News from 7pm on advertiser.com.au.

The SA Transport Action Group will host the forum at Wallis Cinema to discuss a range of ideas, including the reintroduction of passenger rail, congestion issues on the freeway, and the potential for a road and rail bypass in and around the Hills.

Organiser John Hill said transport experts would outline a range of ideas, before the meeting would be opened up for public discussion.

He said the meeting would be supported by the Adelaide Hills and Mount Barker District Councils, with both mayors and CEOs expected to be in attendance.

Mayo MP Rebekha Sharkie, Kavel MP Dan Cregan, Waite MP Sam Duluk, Frome MP Geoff Brock, and opposition transport spokesman Tom Koutsantonis will also be in attendance.

Transport Minister Corey Wingard – who recently said passenger rail was not a suitable option for the region – will not be attending due to a prior engagement.

Mr Hill encouraged anyone with an interest in public transport to attend the meeting.

He said transport solutions centre around the “over capacity” South Eastern freeway, which was not able to cater for future population growth in and around the Hills.

“The SA Transport Action Group has reviewed consultants’ reports and is of the view that the long-term solution to these problems is the development of a hills rail and road bypass with the former freeing up the existing rail track for passenger trains that can carry 660 or more passengers, using modern trains, in shorter time than the current express bus from Mount Barker to the city,” he said.

“These issues are of major importance to residents of both city suburbs and the Hills townships, so it’s important that we get the right people to listen.

“We hope it’s the first of many meeting to come but for now, it’s about getting the right information out there and to show that, especially rail, can be done.”

The forum will be held at Wallis Cinema Mount Barker on Tuesday at 7pm. You can join the conversation on social media using the hashtag #adelhillsforum.

Covid sign in will be required and masks will be available to all attendees.

[marbles]

am in a rush but the idea is sensational, however i heard an opposing opinion that stated the current freight trains that goes from adelaide already takes an hour to get to mt barker, and then you throw in stopping at every train station, hahndorf, bridgewate, algate stirling etc etc, how long is it gonna take to get to adelaide when by car it probably take 27 mins to get to adelaide on the freeway

can the train go direct from crafers to the city, via a tunnel or via norwood etc etc

[rev]

Freight trains probably aren't the best thing to compare travel times to.

It might take roughly half an hour by car, but not everyone has a car, or wants to drive.

I've said before we should expand passenger trains beyond the metropolitan area to our regional areas.
These sorts of projects are 'state building' projects.

[SBD]

am in a rush but the idea is sensational, however i heard an opposing opinion that stated the current freight trains that goes from adelaide already takes an hour to get to mt barker, and then you throw in stopping at every train station, hahndorf, bridgewate, algate stirling etc etc, how long is it gonna take to get to adelaide when by car it probably take 27 mins to get to adelaide on the freeway

can the train go direct from crafers to the city, via a tunnel or via norwood etc etc

A steep railway has a gradient of 1 in 40, meaning it would need 16 km of track to descend the 400m from Crafers to Glen Osmond, which is only 10km on the freeway. A straight railway tunnel would need to start much further back to provide a suitable grade. Then safety consideration needs to include what to do with a runaway train at the bottom.

[d3v310per]

am in a rush but the idea is sensational, however i heard an opposing opinion that stated the current freight trains that goes from adelaide already takes an hour to get to mt barker, and then you throw in stopping at every train station, hahndorf, bridgewate, algate stirling etc etc, how long is it gonna take to get to adelaide when by car it probably take 27 mins to get to adelaide on the freeway

can the train go direct from crafers to the city, via a tunnel or via norwood etc etc

Freight trains are long and heavy. The time they take will vary greatly from modern commuter trains. However, point taken regarding versus passenger car transport. If a commuter train can get close to the time taken by car, it may be a viable option for many in the hills instead of driving to the city. Of course, not all destination trips are city bound, so there will always be a need for private car transport.
From my point of view, the train to Mt Barker was removed for a reason - the convenience of car transport won as it was quicker. As vehicle congestion worsens on Adelaide's roads, a train may become viable again but who knows how far into the future that may be.

[Spotto]

A summary of the public forum from last night. A recording of the live stream is also available on The Advertiser website (for those that can access it). I've provided counter-points to some of the issues that some of these plans raised, but I'm keeping my opinions out of this summary.

• SA Transport Action Group are proponents of the Northern Rail Bypass. This route would allow double stacking.

• They say that they've had a rail engineer identify sections along the Northern Rail Bypass route that can be realigned to avoid the use of a number of tunnels that the original study identified

• They recognise that trains are a more effective mode to move freight over long distances than trucks in both safety, road damage, capacity, and pollution.

• They claim that once Inland Rail is completed between Brisbane and Melbourne, there could be a risk of trains detouring Adelaide entirely and running along the Broken Hill line to Inland Rail to access Melbourne as that route, though longer, would allow double stacking.

• They believe the government can and should enforce the lease with One Rail to return disused country lines to the stage government in the condition that they were handed over (i.e. One Rail would renew the railway to an operational state at their own cost before handing them back to the state) and that the state should further revitalise rail freight and manage infrastructure and track access themselves, citing Victoria as an example.

Their vision is that all freight from Melbourne and the South East would use the Northern Rail Bypass with no freight running into Adelaide from the south, freight needing to access the Islington Freight Terminal or Outer Harbor would all be from the north (no mention of Northern Connector Rail, btw). Then, the disused ARTC track from Adelaide to Mount Barker would be converted to broad gauge for use by a duplicated Belair Line and broad gauge passenger trains to Mount Barker.

Mount Barker trains would run the entire length of a duplicated broad gauge Belair Line as express trains with limited stops, then would continue beyond Belair along the current alignment (likely duplicated too? not specified). Passengers wanting a stopping service between Belair and Adelaide would transfer onto the Belair Line.

No mention was made of mooted proposals such as the Brown Hill Creek bypass between Mitcham and Mount Lofty, or diverting the line beyond Bridgewater onto the SEF which could theoretically be used in conjunction with their vision for passenger rail to speed up services. No mention of how The Overland or future passenger rail to Murray Bridge would be affected being forced to use the Northern Rail Bypass if the current line was fully converted to BG.

Also little focus on the fact that the SA Freight Council were firmly against GlobeLink, of which the Northern Rail Bypass was a key component, as there were concerns that the long indirect route would encourage freight to bypass Adelaide entirely. Not to mention that the business case for GlobeLink did not stack up. SATAG's idealised full conversion of the southern ARTC line to AdMet use would mean zero access for rail freight from the south east making Islington Freight Terminal an inconvenient destination. Plus, Pacific National and Lin Fox recently announced a new intermodal partnership at Islington; the freight terminal is not moving anytime soon.

Guest speakers main points:
Tom Koutsantonis (Shadow Transport Minister, Labor)

• Pledge to use Marshall Government's $10m second study into rail freight (following the GlobeLink study's failure) to include reference groups and locals in the new study and investigate passenger transport solutions as well as freight.

Adrian Pederick (State MP, Liberal)

• Mentioned how trucks larger than B-doubles already are not allowed to use the downhill run of the SEF and have to detour.

• Road trains for Mallee and cross-border grain are a cost saving over rail and are easier due to different gauges in Victoria (was reminded by one of the SATAG moderators that the Victorian line to Pinaroo has been renewed and converted to SG as far as Murrayville).

• General favour of trucks, little regard for trains.

Sam Duluk (State MP, ex-Liberal) & Robert Simms (State Senator, Greens)

• Separate brief speeches, but both spoke about how the current planning system has little regard for transport infrastructure and which needs to change.

• In response to an audience question, Simms reiterated Greens campaign pledge to reverse privatisation of public transport including buses.

Rebekha Sharkie (Federal MP, Centre) & Dan Cregan (State MP, Liberal)

• Joint presentation as they work together due to their electorates overlapping, but Sharkie took the lead.

• Listed their funding accomplishments so far. Discussed population increase in Mount Barker, increased SEF usage, truck usage.

• Dedicated study for public transport in Mount Barker and the Hills (the original study was for freight only).

[Bob]

Nice summary Spotto.


This is wishy washy stuff by these people, even if a magic wand was waved and all rail freight was moved out of the equation to a different route, nowhere has anyone stated what the accepted travel time will be for the public to use the proposed service.

After reviewing the current bus services in peak hour, I see 55 minutes on some services from Mt Barker station park/ride to Grenfell Street with the bus stopping about a dozen times along the route, the current rail alignment from ARS to the same place in Mt Barker will still be close to 90 minutes.

Even if you upgrade the current rail alignment you still won’t be anywhere near the 55 minutes by semi-express bus, so the unanswered question remains – what travel time will the people of Mt Barker find acceptable to use a train service regularly?

And the people off to the side who weren’t mentioned in the above article pushing for a new expensive alternate passenger rail alignment, then they need to get in the queue with all the other rail related projects need doing.

As much as I am a keen rail advocate, I cant see Mt Barker getting a regular viable service back going about it this way.

Edit - P.S.


I have done some additional rough calculations on the current rail alignment using rail car observing track speed limit restrictions.

Express from Keswick to Mt Barker Junction 60 minutes running time with continuous momentum – no stopping.

Mt Barker Junction to Mt Barker – line conversion required – add 10 minutes running time.

Keswick to ARS – line conversion required through Adelaide Yard limits – add 5 to 10 minutes running time.

Additional stops add 2 minutes running time to schedule per stop – deceleration, stopping time and acceleration.

No allowance for delays for any train crossovers on the single line stretch from Belair to Mt Barker

Therefore, an express the entire route would be 75 -80 minutes - with stopping trains obviously more.

To reduce these times would require increased speed limits in certain sections on the current rail alignment but without a thorough engineering assessment on how to achieve that, we would be guessing what time savings would be possible, but as there is only so much you can do with the current alignment I imagine it would still prove difficult to compete with the semi-express bus service to the CBD.

[whatstheirnamesmom]

There was a part in SATAG's presentation citing past travel time for SteamRanger services from Adelaide Railway Station to Mount Barker in 47 minutes.

It can be done.

[Bob]

There was a part in SATAG's presentation citing past travel time for SteamRanger services from Adelaide Railway Station to Mount Barker in 47 minutes.

It can be done.

Sorry to spoil their party but no train has ever achieved 47 minutes from ARS to Mt Barker, not in SAR days nor since, and is impossible in the current alignment to do so.

As mentioned before to reduce times on this alignment a thorough engineering report would be required and probable modifications to allow higher running speeds, and even then getting close to semi-express bus times will be tough.

Happy to be proven wrong if someone can put forward an actual technical plan including rail corridor modifications required with an associated costing plan, to demonstrate exactly how.

[claybro]

There was a part in SATAG's presentation citing past travel time for SteamRanger services from Adelaide Railway Station to Mount Barker in 47 minutes.

It can be done.

So a steam train could do it in 47 mins, but a modern diesel electric nearly 1.5? Those guys from 100 years ago would laugh their heads off at the clowns running rail now. Everything is too hard too expensive and even when it gets done .. still slow. As for the Liberal attitude at this is a complete joke. As usual Victoria is running rings around SA and will again reep the rewards in particular with the Mallee. Good to see this action group is shining a light on this, snd hopefully a future Labor government might smell some votes and pick it up. Future growth of Mount Barket and Murray Bridge depend on it.

[SBD]

There was a part in SATAG's presentation citing past travel time for SteamRanger services from Adelaide Railway Station to Mount Barker in 47 minutes.

It can be done.

Sorry to spoil their party but no train has ever achieved 47 minutes from ARS to Mt Barker, not in SAR days nor since, and is impossible in the current alignment to do so.

As mentioned before to reduce times on this alignment a thorough engineering report would be required and probable modifications to allow higher running speeds, and even then getting close to semi-express bus times will be tough.

Happy to be proven wrong if someone can put forward an actual technical plan including rail corridor modifications required with an associated costing plan, to demonstrate exactly how.

Either the counting was off, or something has changed since it was done:

• Have speed limits been reduced? If so, why?
• Was the SteamRanger running a full train with passengers from the platform in ARS, or running light-engine and counting from the Adelaide Gaol triangle or Keswick terminal?
• If this is real, it would have dates, and likely video for a special service with other trains kept out of the way

There are presently crossing loops at Ambleside and Balhannah which could help with service frequency. Others could probably be added if needed (Mount Lofty, Aldgate, Bridgewater, Mt Barker Junction had space).

[rev]

There was a part in SATAG's presentation citing past travel time for SteamRanger services from Adelaide Railway Station to Mount Barker in 47 minutes.

It can be done.

So a steam train could do it in 47 mins, but a modern diesel electric nearly 1.5? Those guys from 100 years ago would laugh their heads off at the clowns running rail now. Everything is too hard too expensive and even when it gets done .. still slow. As for the Liberal attitude at this is a complete joke. As usual Victoria is running rings around SA and will again reep the rewards in particular with the Mallee. Good to see this action group is shining a light on this, snd hopefully a future Labor government might smell some votes and pick it up. Future growth of Mount Barket and Murray Bridge depend on it.

By the time SA gets around to planning for regional rail, Victoria will have introduced teleportation.

[marbles]

we basically need a tunnel from torrens park/brownhill creek up to stirling/crafers and bypass all the blackwood crap lol

[Bob]

The simple message should have been a vision something along these lines:

We want a frequent passenger service from Mt Barker RS to Adelaide RS with a journey time of one hour including a stop at Belair to connect with Adelaide Metro services in addition to stops at 2-3 other locations YTBD between Mt Barker and Belair. On that basis can the government request their engineering resources to review the route and provide a report on what is required to make this possible.

The report would then have to include not only all the rail corridor modifications required but the cost, then this request could be submitted with the rest of the rail improvements needing review for priority status of funding allocation. I will speculate that the cost required will be much higher than people are expecting.

BTW – as before the 47 minute statement is inaccurate, the original daily Bridgewater express to ARS using 520 class steam locos in peak SAR operating condition took 50 minutes. This is the same loco class used by Steam ranger operating in a heritage speed restricted condition, so probably impossible to make the ARS - Bridgewater section in that time, let alone the entire ARS – Mt Barker route in the 47 minutes quoted.

[SBD]

we basically need a tunnel from torrens park/brownhill creek up to stirling/crafers and bypass all the blackwood crap lol

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What is the gradient in that tunnel? Surely any faster route to Mount Barker needs to avoid going to the highest railway station in South Australia, not climb to it by a shorter, steeper route.