News & Discussion: Trams

[whatstheirnamesmom]

Undoubtedly very hard to run a heritage services along Jetty Rd given the frequency of the trams, even on weekends. As the trams already run every 10 minutes outside peak 7 days a week it makes it very hard to slot an additional tram service in that only uses three stops. The biggest problem is the lack of platform space at the Glenelg terminus, with the tram services themselves tending to get backed up in peak. I would very much like to see a heritage service be introduced, but Jetty Rd probably isn't ideal. North Terrace could work imo, given there should be plenty of spare capacity at the moment, but heritage services aren't ideal - mostly with accessibility for disabled passengers

How difficult would it be to modify the old trams to allow wheel chair access?

Two Adelaide F-Type ‘drop centre’ trams at St Kilda have already been modified to allow disabled access, as has the Melbourne W7 1013 and the Melbourne W2 trams the museum holds.

They required very little internal modification due to, as the name suggests, the drop in the middle. They do still require a purpose-built concrete ramp for wheelchair passengers to board as the entrance is still a way off the ground.

Adelaide’s modern tram platforms cater for low-floor trams, so I actually see issues with disability access even if a modified heritage tram were to run again.

While it is unfortunate, I do think the services should run occasionally anyway as others have suggested. Maybe once a new depot is built. So in another 3 decades or so. lol

[Spotto]

Out of the question. You'd end up butchering the trams beyond any recognition whatsoever. It defeats the purpose of them being a heritage tram.

Im sure if there was a will to do it, they could find a way without heavily compromising the overall heritage.

No, it's physically not possible. High floor trams are dictated by the chassis and wheels that need to fit beneath the tram, you can't magically make them lower without completely rebuilding and redesigning them, in which case they would no-longer be preserved heritage trams.

[Patrick_27]

Similarly to how Melbourne use their old fleet of trams, a CBD loop would be the ideal scenario to bringing the H-class back for select services as well as perhaps the Restaurant H-class. And I'm sure in any case, the St. Kilda Tramways Museum would be more than happy to see this happen, regardless of who owns the trams. But then again, why only go as far back as the H-class fleet? The Tramways Museum has a majority of Adelaide's older rolling stock from our tramway days, why not find a cost effective way to rotate what trams we have running on a heritage service?

[whatstheirnamesmom]

If the trams were given to the AETM, as opposed to "loaned", it would indicate that there's no intention of ever running a service with them - they no longer are the property of the SA Government.

As an aside, does anyone know the last time they were run in Adelaide? The latest I am aware of is October 2016. However, that may be way off the correct date.

It is my understanding they were donated and are not on loan.

As for last runs, Oct 2016 is the latest date I have heard. I can ask my AETM contacts.

[whatstheirnamesmom]

Similarly to how Melbourne use their old fleet of trams, a CBD loop would be the ideal scenario to bringing the H-class back for select services as well as perhaps the Restaurant H-class. And I'm sure in any case, the St. Kilda Tramways Museum would be more than happy to see this happen, regardless of who owns the trams. But then again, why only go as far back as the H-class fleet? The Tramways Museum has a majority of Adelaide's older rolling stock from our tramway days, why not find a cost effective way to rotate what trams we have running on a heritage service?

I am sure AETM would love to see it happen. Australia’s best and biggest collection of preserved trams, shame they’re stuck out at St Kilda.

Rotating the stock could be difficult and infrequent as it would be expensive for a volunteer-run group to fund the moves, and apparently there are only 2 or 3 trucks in Australia purpose-built for loading and moving these trams. Also need to consider storage (I.e., new/expanded depot). By no means impossible though.

Some State Govt funding would help enable it.

[rooshooter]

As much as I’d love to see it happen, it’s pretty much physically impossible to run any of the pre H types due to tram stop specs (height, shape etc) iirc.
Plus you’d need to fit them with pantographs to run under the wires - trolley poles aren’t suitable on the main line.
Best bet would be to support the museum, and help them grow and continue to maintain that history.
Meanwhile it’s certainly viable (with political support and cash money) to run limited H services once depot space is found again for 351 or 352.
Love it to happen but it unfortunately seems unlikely any time soon.

[Spotto]

As much as I’d love to see it happen, it’s pretty much physically impossible to run any of the pre H types due to tram stop specs (height, shape etc) iirc.
Plus you’d need to fit them with pantographs to run under the wires - trolley poles aren’t suitable on the main line.
Best bet would be to support the museum, and help them grow and continue to maintain that history.
Meanwhile it’s certainly viable (with political support and cash money) to run limited H services once depot space is found again for 351 or 352.
Love it to happen but it unfortunately seems unlikely any time soon.

It's far from "physically impossible", the two units that have just been donated to the museum can and have run on the current network and were also fitted with pantographs. They were the last two units of five that were fully refurbished by DPTI in 2000.

I dread to think how much money was put into refurbishing those five units in 2000 and then again restoring the two remaining units in 2012, only for them to have spent 15 of the past 21 years in storage.

[whatstheirnamesmom]

Rooshooter was referring to pre H-Types and acknowledged that we have H-Types that could indeed run on the network

[1NEEDS2POST]

The H type trams are fitted with pantographs, so can they run on the St Kilda line? Catenary for trolley poles usually wears a groove in pantographs because it's straight to prevent trolley pole dewiring.

[rubberman]

Here's a link showing how to run trolley pole cars on a panto line.

https://www.ceskenoviny.cz/zpravy/na-ko ... je/2063462

[whatstheirnamesmom]

Referring back to the disability access discussion for heritage trams, it seems Melbourne gets away with running the heritage W-Class City Circle trams because the Vic DoT claims to run them not as a regular service for the purposes of public transport but as tourist services for the purposes of, well, tourism.

I came across this October 2020 audit conducted by the Victorian Auditor-General's Department which was quite scathing of both Vic DoT and Yarra Trams for lack of action in meeting their accessibility requirements in terms of at-level street stops and low-floor trams that are up to code. The federal Disability Discrimination Act 1992 (DDA) is the driving force behind the compliance measures, and the Victorian Govt is open to litigation should they fail to meet their accessibility requirements.

However, the audit makes several notes throughout that the scope of their audit did not include the heritage W-Class services. It seems to imply (although not that strongly) that the heritage services are lawful under the act.

There are approximately 500 trams on the network, with eight of those listed as heritage trams (W-Class) that are only used on the City Circle free tourist route. DoT considers the W-Class to be working heritage trams and the City Circle route as a tourist attraction, not a regular tram route.

Based on this, Adelaide may be able to run tourist services without the risk of litigation under DDA 1992. I am unsure if any legislation exists at a state level that may prevent it.

[Spotto]

Speaking of Melbourne’s inaccessible trams, they’re currently undergoing a multi-million dollar full refurbishment: stripped bare and rebuilt from the ground up. The 250th unit puts them past the halfway mark of trams to be refurbished.

Yes, new accessible trams don’t appear overnight, and refurbishing is far more cost-effective... but it’s certainly an interesting choice to make.

https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/major-tr ... lfway-mark

https://mobile.twitter.com/9newsmelb/st ... 63394?s=21

[muzzamo]

ast the halfway mark of trams to be refurbished.

Yes, new accessible trams don’t appear overnight, and refurbishing is far more cost-effective... but it’s certainly an interesting choice to make.

That's interesting - usually in public service circles accessibility is seen as non-negotiable. Especially in a socialist and high borrowing state like Victoria it's hard to imagine a decision like that making it's way through the bureaucracy.

[rubberman]

ast the halfway mark of trams to be refurbished.

Yes, new accessible trams don’t appear overnight, and refurbishing is far more cost-effective... but it’s certainly an interesting choice to make.

That's interesting - usually in public service circles accessibility is seen as non-negotiable. Especially in a socialist and high borrowing state like Victoria it's hard to imagine a decision like that making it's way through the bureaucracy.

As a result of Covid-19, all the States are ramping up their debt. Those hit the hardest, NSW and Vic are doing the most.

Similarly, the Federal Government gave $30bn of borrowed money to businesses that didn't need it. Further, SA is also ramping up debt in a huge manner.

I guess from the point of view of covid relief, the question is whether converting trams to low floor models outweighs other projects to keep the economy going.

Back on topic to Adelaide and trams, I don't see the current SA Government spending any of its record debt on trams. Let's see if something comes up during the election campaign.

[rubberman]

I went to a public meeting with the Liberal Member for Adelaide and the Planning Minister.

I asked about the Adelaide tram loop.

She was forthright in her opinion that buses do a good job.

So, no tram loop if the Libs get back.

Does anyone know the ALP position?