[U/C] M2 North-South Motorway

[rev]

Every time someone complains about bike lanes.
They could make an entire road a bike lane and some people still wouldn't be happy. And we all know many of the cyclists still wouldn't be able to stay within the marked bike lane.

In all honesty who gives a shit about how big the bike lanes are.
There's very few cyclists who use the bike lanes along T2T. Will be the same with T2D.

This project isn't about cyclists being able to race around faster between coffee shops on Sundays.

[[email protected]]

Has anybody seen timeline for this project and opening of southern tunnels
Business Case finalised
Reference Design finalised
Reference Design released to the community for feedback
We are
here
2022
Release Project Assessment Report and invite community feedback
Tender released for first major construction package
Start laydown area preparation and construction of the Southern Tunnel substation to power the Tunnel Boring Machine
2023
Start Southern Tunnel construction
2024 - 2027
Start enabling work (utility service relocations) for the Northern Tunnel
Start site preparation work
Start Northern Tunnel construction
2029
Complete Southern Tunnel construction
Southern Tunnel open to traffic
2030
Complete Northern Tunnel construction
Open to traffic

[VLtom]

Every time someone complains about bike lanes.
They could make an entire road a bike lane and some people still wouldn't be happy. And we all know many of the cyclists still wouldn't be able to stay within the marked bike lane.

In all honesty who gives a shit about how big the bike lanes are.
There's very few cyclists who use the bike lanes along T2T. Will be the same with T2D.

This project isn't about cyclists being able to race around faster between coffee shops on Sundays.

Care because being able to cycle is still a very important part of the transport equation, when you give them the chance, people will ride, this has been well shown with all the greenways installed along rail lines in Adelaide, when it's safe people will do it. It matters for T2D because the current proposed solution is not safe nor inviting to anyone but the most confident of lycra clad cycle enthusiasts. You complain that one uses the bike lane on T2T, but why would you? It's tiny and uninviting, your better off using other corridors because it has not been designed for people to actually cycle in, only on a tick box on an Austroads plan.

Cycling advocates don't ask for much, just a safe dedicated area for riders to get out of the way of cars and be in a safe environment. IMO this was dont almost entirely effectively on Darlington, the separated bike infrastructure is gold standard for this state and there's no reason it shouldn't be expanded for T2T. South Road should be a nice cycling corridor, Adelaide lacks any north - south routes between the CBD and beach, the least DIT can do is try a little harder

[SBD]

Every time someone complains about bike lanes.
They could make an entire road a bike lane and some people still wouldn't be happy. And we all know many of the cyclists still wouldn't be able to stay within the marked bike lane.

In all honesty who gives a shit about how big the bike lanes are.
There's very few cyclists who use the bike lanes along T2T. Will be the same with T2D.

This project isn't about cyclists being able to race around faster between coffee shops on Sundays.

Cyclists I've seen riding along South Road look like industrial types on utility bikes going to or from local employers (mostly noticed around the area where the Superway comes to ground, near where the Regency Road overpass is now). Your Sunday coffee drinkers on expensive road bikes wearing lycra seem to be crossing South Road, presumably travelling between the hills and the beaches.

[ChillyPhilly]

What easily muddles cycling discussion is the different needs of cycling as recreation, and cycling as transport.

The State Government have probably focused more on the former.

[Nathan]

What easily muddles cycling discussion is the different needs of cycling as recreation, and cycling as transport.

The State Government have probably focused more on the former.

I think part of the problem is that the State Government muddles the two up, as do the cycling associations like BikeSA.

[Nathan]

If this is to be plan, then some effort needs to go into rationalising traffic lights on Port Road e.g. through the use of pedestrian overpasses to replace crossings.

As someone very local to this section of road, and who uses it frequently as a driver, pedestrian, cyclist and public transport user, I can confidently say that there are very few pedestrian-related causes to the peak hour hold ups on Port Road. The bulk of the traffic backs up from the Chief Street and Park Terrace intersections. The Ent Ctr tram stop pedestrian lights are timed around the red light cycle of the latter so traffic flow isn't disrupted.

The Thebarton and Botanic Park tram stops do stop traffic for pedestrians but the main sticking points here are the Phillips Street and George Street intersections, not the crossings - which I suspect (although I've never looked that closely) are also timed around these intersections. This section is also much freer flowing than the South Road to Ent Ctr section so any changes here would have less of an impact to overall journey time.

I also suspect that introducing pedestrian overpasses instead of surface level crossings would be a nightmare from a DDA perspective - you'd need to fit in three sets of lifts at each crossing as there's not enough space for ramps to the central tram stops - but should a wheelchair user really have to spend 10 minutes crossing an inner city road?

Doing something about the Park Terrace/Port Road intersection would be the only thing that would have a significant effect on reducing queues. However, I can't envisage a solution that wouldn't involve a large overpass directly adjacent to the parklands along Port Road so I'm not sure how palatable this solution would be. I'd certainly not want to see it.

Having missed many a tram at Entertainment Centre, and also waiting for eons to cross at Thebarton tram stop, I can vouch that the traffic lights are definitely not timed in favour of pedestrians.
(In the morning, most cross at Ent Centre on the red through the stopped traffic.)

[Spotto]

Every time someone complains about bike lanes.
They could make an entire road a bike lane and some people still wouldn't be happy. And we all know many of the cyclists still wouldn't be able to stay within the marked bike lane.

In all honesty who gives a shit about how big the bike lanes are.

Good cycle infrastructure benefits both cyclists AND cars. Removing bikes from the road benefits everybody, so you'd be surprised how many motorists would "give a shit".

Take the Darlington Project for example, they built a fully segregated bike path up on the kerb running alongside the footpath, removing bikes from sharing the road with cars completely. No bike lanes means:

• Cars don't have to move around cyclists (a common annoyance among motorists)

• Cyclists can ride two abreast if they want without disrupting cars (another common annoyance)

• Less experienced and experienced cyclists feel safer on segregated bike paths which makes it more appealing for people to use

• Bike lanes are where road debris settles because of proximity to the kerb, which is why they ride so close to the line to avoid it, segregated bike paths remove this problem

• If a cyclist falls or swerves unexpectedly, the chance of being hit by a car is significantly reduced to non-existent

[ChillyPhilly]

Here's a collation of the Motorway and the ANZAC Highway area. Pretty nasty.



And Deacon Ave/James Congdon Drive. I understand the link here, along with Everard Ave slightly further south, as these roads serve commercial and industrial land:

[rev]

Every time someone complains about bike lanes.
They could make an entire road a bike lane and some people still wouldn't be happy. And we all know many of the cyclists still wouldn't be able to stay within the marked bike lane.

In all honesty who gives a shit about how big the bike lanes are.

Good cycle infrastructure benefits both cyclists AND cars. Removing bikes from the road benefits everybody, so you'd be surprised how many motorists would "give a shit".

Take the Darlington Project for example, they built a fully segregated bike path up on the kerb running alongside the footpath, removing bikes from sharing the road with cars completely. No bike lanes means:

• Cars don't have to move around cyclists (a common annoyance among motorists)

• Cyclists can ride two abreast if they want without disrupting cars (another common annoyance)

• Less experienced and experienced cyclists feel safer on segregated bike paths which makes it more appealing for people to use

• Bike lanes are where road debris settles because of proximity to the kerb, which is why they ride so close to the line to avoid it, segregated bike paths remove this problem

• If a cyclist falls or swerves unexpectedly, the chance of being hit by a car is significantly reduced to non-existent

Im all for segregated bike lanes. Most cyclists in lycra make their own road rules, so it would be a huge benefit. Let the problems they create be solely confined to a realm affecting them selves and other cyclists only.

Why does every road project need to be a cycling route as well?
There isn't that many people who ride their bikes for leisure let alone to/from work, it hardly justifies the extra cost of segregated bike lanes especially on this project which already has constraints on available land.
People get pissed off over homes being bulldozed for a wider road, imagine how they'd react if you told them their homes being demolished for a bikeway.

There's also a dedicated bike lane along Military road at West Beach, taking them off the road, THEORETICALLY.
The problem is almost none of them, especially the lycra brigade, use it, instead they ride on the road often in packs.

Let's be honest. Its not your average Harriet and Harold asking for bike lanes or better riding infrastructure in general. Its the lycra type who is most vocal.

A small minority of people.
Why should my taxes pay for dedicated bike lanes segregated from the road for them, when they don't use it?

You can't argue that if you build it people will suddenly by bikes and use them.
If the government or cycling associations want more people using bikes and more frequently (I mean government should, it's good for health, healthier people less strain on public hospitals..), perhaps they should have a campaign promoting and encouraging it.

[ChillyPhilly]

Rev, if you build infrastructure for cycling, it WILL be used.

Less people are riding because the appropriate infrastructure isn't there.

A painted line on a road is not sufficient.

Belgium and the Netherlands are prime examples.

[rev]

Rev, if you build infrastructure for cycling, it WILL be used.

Less people are riding because the appropriate infrastructure isn't there.

A painted line on a road is not sufficient.

Belgium and the Netherlands are prime examples.

South Road t2t..since the motorway opened surface traffic has decreased considerably.
Minimal use of bike lane.

Segregated bike lane down military road west beach. Minimal use, and the lycra crew use the road instead.

Dont want to sound rude but move there then?
Those are two tiny countries. Different culture and lifestyle.

A campaign to get people riding, recreationally, would do more to get more people on a bike then building dedicated bike lanes straight off the bat.

[ChillyPhilly]

That's because councils and governments need to consider cycling as transport, not just recreation.

T2T is a poor example. That whole project failed in a few ways.

[Listy]

Im all for segregated bike lanes. Most cyclists in lycra make their own road rules, so it would be a huge benefit. Let the problems they create be solely confined to a realm affecting them selves and other cyclists only.

Why does every road project need to be a cycling route as well?
There isn't that many people who ride their bikes for leisure let alone to/from work, it hardly justifies the extra cost of segregated bike lanes especially on this project which already has constraints on available land.
People get pissed off over homes being bulldozed for a wider road, imagine how they'd react if you told them their homes being demolished for a bikeway.

There's also a dedicated bike lane along Military road at West Beach, taking them off the road, THEORETICALLY.
The problem is almost none of them, especially the lycra brigade, use it, instead they ride on the road often in packs.

Let's be honest. Its not your average Harriet and Harold asking for bike lanes or better riding infrastructure in general. Its the lycra type who is most vocal.

A small minority of people.
Why should my taxes pay for dedicated bike lanes segregated from the road for them, when they don't use it?

You can't argue that if you build it people will suddenly by bikes and use them.
If the government or cycling associations want more people using bikes and more frequently (I mean government should, it's good for health, healthier people less strain on public hospitals..), perhaps they should have a campaign promoting and encouraging it.

The 'dedicated bike lane' on Military road at West Beach literally starts in the middle of nowhere and ends in the middle of nowhere too - You have to use Military Rd to get to it, and you get dumped back on Military Rd at the end of it, so why not just stay on Military Rd? Military Rd at least will take you directly from A to B without dumping you at a skate park car park, and that stretch past the caravan park is both very wide and very quiet. It doesn't connect up with any popular bike paths (like linear path, not too far away) and it doesn't take you anywhere useful (ie Glenelg, also not too far away). It's a perfect example of *exactly* what is wrong with the dedicated cycling infrastructure in Adelaide. It exists & its there in some form, but its mostly unusable because its either hard to get to, or it takes you nowhere useful. Why would anybody use it if its not actually *useful*.

As for cycling advocacy, the overwhelming bulk of the work in Adelaide is done by community groups who are interested in cycling as a transport form. For example Port Adelaide has a reasonably good network of off and on road bike paths because of excellent work done by the Port Adelaide bike user group - mums, dads, kids, pensioners, commuters etc, who just want to get from A to B conveniently and safely in their local neighborhood. Maybe some of them wear lycra too sometimes, but it's actually very very rare for any of the racing clubs (anywhere in Australia, not just Adelaide) to speak up about infrastructure.

Unfortunately, it is next to impossible to get state governments to properly listen to groups like this at all, ever. (Hence all the crap paths to nowhere we end up with all over Adelaide - it's councils that end up doing all the heavy lifting for community pedestrian & cycling friendly infrastructure in this state, but they are mostly limited to little projects that start and end inside their own boundaries, and nothing ever links up).

It gets even harder if you are trying to modify infrastructure that's already there. It took the Port BUG more than *10 years* of ceaseless campaigning (and 3 or 4 deaths) just to get a no-brainer of an off road bike path constructed on completely vacant land along the Port Expressway for instance. And that's precisely why cyclists want suitable infrastructure put in place now along South Rd. It'll cost perhaps a few million dollars to get it right (probably way less than the cost of the consultancy fees for the advertising and marketing for this project), it will benefit literally everyone who uses the road by improving safely and usability for all the users of the road, and once in place the infrastructure is there for the lifetime of the motorway and doesn't have to be shoehorned in piecemeal over the next 30 years, costing 10 times as much.

[NTRabbit]

The dedicated bicycle path alongside South Tce starts and ends in a good spot, and I still end up caught behind the lycra brigade riding down the middle of a lane of South Tce on my way to work on the weekends anyway.