News & Discussion: O-Bahn

[rubberman]

Now, obviously, it could be more convenient for casual travellers to get on a bus and buy a paper ticket, but that's a big cost for the transit authority. Now, if there was a huge call for it, then fine. However, the number of people who are likely to get on a bus after using a car all their, and then suddenly decide PT is for them based only on being able to get a ticket at the door is pretty small. Plus, if they do suddenly change a lifetime habit and use PT more often, then they're sure to go buy a Metrocard in any case.

The government must be very misguided to currently be replacing the validators at great expense to allow for people to buy on a bus with visa/MasterCard.

Reality is occurring all around you.

So? You can buy with a Mastercard or Visa. You pay full fare. With a Metrocard you can get a range of concessions. What's the problem then? That's what happens in Sydney, for example. Use M/C or Visa and you pay full fare. Like Adelaide. With the cheaper validators, you can't do multiple taps because otherwise people would be forever getting caught with double charges if they didn't tap right. It's been tried and failed. The alternative used in other places, esp Europe is a menu based system where you select your ticket from a menu screen, and then tap...and a paper ticket is printed to show what you paid for. Apart from the expense, that only needs one person to get hung up on the machine trying to figure it out, and everyone is delayed. So, it's mostly used on vehicles with double doors and multiple entry systems. So, ok for our trams and not much else.

If you could clearly outline some system that allows you to do what you think it should in this reality occurring all around, that would help.

[bits]

It's only taken 17 days in 2022 for Bits to already be awarded the dishonour of one of SA's most annoying forumers, joining the miserable likes of GHS, ScooterGuy & HiTouch.

Yawn. Add something intelligent to the conversation instead of assuming status quo is what Adelaide is aiming for.
Metrocard in its current form is an archaic system that never actually enjoyed a time where it could even entirely replace paper tickets.
When people are talking about the main distribution being in newsagents that are struggling to find any relevance in a modern world you should be hearing alarms bells for why we are still stuck here.

I am only here to question if and why it's replacement still has known shortfalls which means there is yet more to be done.

[Spotto]

It's only taken 17 days in 2022 for Bits to already be awarded the dishonour of one of SA's most annoying forumers, joining the miserable likes of GHS, ScooterGuy & HiTouch.

Yawn. Add something intelligent to the conversation instead of assuming status quo is what Adelaide is aiming for.

Double yawn. Sticking your head in the sand when users on this forum have given you the answers to your issues yet you stick your head in the sand and complain that the system is completely broken is the exact opposite of the intelligent conversation you claim to be adding.

[bits]

Sticking your head in the sand when users on this forum have given you the answers to your issues yet you stick your head in the sand and complain that the system is completely broken is the exact opposite of the intelligent conversation you claim to be adding.

They told me to go get multiple metrocards from the newsagent prior to a bus trip. I already knew I could do that and it wasn't what I asked.
Instead of actually answering my question they instead just wanted to argue that my question was invalid due to it not aligning with how they use the system. Validators only validate and all.

Adelaidemetro of course agrees with how I view the system and is in the process of replacing equipment to enable straight forward purchasing of tickets again.
Adelaidemetro list that Metrocard is intended for regular users and that paper tickets is the current preferred ticket for casual users.

Pefe is the only one that actually has added real answers and information that was worthwhile to know regarding purchasing of tickets.
Thanks pefe for adding info regarding where tap and pay is to be available. And advising that the price of a fare via tap and pay is the same as Metrocard prices but does not require the $5 card.

My question was about what was at the time the current topic of new validators for buses and their ability to accept Visa and MasterCard.
And could a parent buy tickets for themselves and their children with the new validators.
The actual answer is: it appears that is still not going to be possible.
And the answer given here is: no one wants to use visa or MasterCard on public transport because you should use multiple Metrocards because that is what I do.

[PeFe]

Bits

In the short term you should just bite the bullet and buy Metrocards, if not for you then especially for the kids. One day your kids will be teenagers and they will have their own lives and their own transport needs. The cards can be registered via an account (multiple cards possible) and continually topped up via a credit card without any effort.
And if you so wish you can track your children's travels via the website. Each trip will be listed with mode route and time of day.

Also giving young kids a Metrocard starts their lessons dealing with money via debit/credit cards. They will learn to value the card like cash and appreciate that they can get home even if they have no money. Should the card be lost or stolen it can be blocked via the website and the outstanding money returned to you. If your kids are using public transport to get to school and weekend activities a 28 day pass is the best value.....a mere $26 for unlimited travel across 4 weeks. Excellent value.

And you yourself should still get one....."tap and pay" across all modes of transport in Adelaide may be years away.......I have no inside knowledge but I would not be surprised if it took 2 years to get the new validators on all the buses and trains. The Metrocard will act as a backup if the car fails or you find yourself going to a social event where you would like to drink. The card costs $5 and youshould put $10 on it so 2 trips are possible. Thats $15...the cost of 2 beers. Not much at all. And even if in 2 years you would rather "tap and Pay" well the card is still there and can be used by guests from the country or interstate.

And getting back to the validators again......yes they are validators, validating that there is money on the Metrocard and validating that your credit card meets the criteria to purchase a product. You asked why can't be an app on your phone where you can buy multiple tickets.....from my knowledge of transport apps from around the world I believe they all work in the same way. One ticket per device (certainly over a short time period) so your phone is your Metrocard/credit card working to the same criteria.

[VLtom]

MetroCARDs are not going to disappear any time soon. The way the VISA/MasterCard system is being rolled out onto public transport is mainly acting as a normal MetroCARD validator. They will deduct a regular MetroCARD fare, peak or off-peak. At least for the time being this is all Adelaide Metro want to use the system for. It is useful for irregular adult passengers and tourists.

The new system will not be able to deduct student or concession fares, only adult ones, theoretically it would and ideally should though but that's another conversation. This is why everyone continues to advocate for MetroCARDs, they offer superior value for almost anyone and can further be loaded with the 14 and 28 day passes everyone continues to rave about for good reason.

The VISA/Mastercard validators are nice to haves, but don't change the game on what will be the best value for even irregular users of Adelaide Metro. Some of these new validators have made there way as MetroCARD only at the moment to the O-Bahn, they serve to modernise the system and replace what Adelaide Metro claims are outdated validators at the end of their lives. Now this is mostly BS, the state gov felt like funding this to the tune of $6 million because they like handing scraps to SAPTA here and there. It's being rolled out onto the O-Bahn because of the unique all door boarding those buses have and the the fact they have MetroCARD only validators at those doors. They will be useful I'm sure, for those who forget their MetroCARDs and will definitely replace paper tickets for most people and we'll see the end of that decades old system at last.

[bits]

In the short term you should just bite the bullet and buy Metrocards, if not for you then especially for the kids. One day your kids will be teenagers and they will have their own lives and their own transport needs.

I will let you in on a secret but shhh dont tell anyone here because they will claim this has all been a pointless waste of everyone's time.... My kids are all under 5, travel free and certainly have no need for a little while for their own metrocards.
I am more likely to bring multiple smartphones and use visa payment from each than carry metrocards.

[Spotto]

My question was about what was at the time the current topic of new validators for buses and their ability to accept Visa and MasterCard.
And could a parent buy tickets for themselves and their children with the new validators.
The actual answer is: it appears that is still not going to be possible.
And the answer given here is: no one wants to use visa or MasterCard on public transport because you should use multiple Metrocards because that is what I do.

Your question also included that your situation was not a problem under the paper ticket system, which is completely untrue.

An Eftpos card can only be assigned to one person for travel. Like how a Metrocard can only be assigned to one person, or how a paper ticket can only be assigned to one person. But you've said your kids are under 5 so they travel free under your regular fare anyway.

If paper tickets were still the norm and your kids were over 5, you'd still need to buy separate tickets for them. The only difference now is that Metrocards are the preferred method of ticketing over paper, but unlike paper tickets you can recharge them online before you travel so you're not stuck without a way to pay, or being forced to pay cash to the bus driver.

And Metrocard fares are also cheaper than paper ticket fares, so you'd also be saving your family money in the long run regardless of how often you travel.

[bits]

Your question also included that your situation was not a problem under the paper ticket system, which is completely untrue.

I could always buy multiple paper tickets wherever they were sold with a common funding method of the time.
When they were sold on the bus it was common to have cash.
Now they are sold in vending machines that accept EFTPOS. When this switched occurred buses should have had EFTPOS payment for tickets onboard. That is now being rolled out, finally!

An Eftpos card can only be assigned to one person for travel. Like how a Metrocard can only be assigned to one person, or how a paper ticket can only be assigned to one person. But you've said your kids are under 5 so they travel free under your regular fare anyway.

Metrocard and eftpos card assigned to a single user is the topic!
An individual would typically have 1 eftpos card their bank assigned to them. It is non trivial to increase the amount of EFTPOS cards one has access to. It is entirely trivial to increase the amount of tickets one purchases. That is why paper tickets still have a very powerful feature the card system is unable to currently offer and it should offer. That is my point.

If paper tickets were still the norm and your kids were over 5, you'd still need to buy separate tickets for them.

Yes.

The only difference now is that Metrocards are the preferred method of ticketing over paper

No.
Adelaidemetro website is clear that paper tickets are the preferred method for infrequent users.
I agree paper tickets for a casual user is a far better system than Metrocard. But adelaidemetro are fools and removed purchase of those tickets on or near where people catch the bus.

but unlike paper tickets you can recharge them online before you travel so you're not stuck without a way to pay, or being forced to pay cash to the bus driver.

Or I could just buy a ticket with my money as it had always been and is being returned to after a few lost years.
With one exception - I can't buy multiple tickets.
That is the topic that is ongoing if you forgot.

And Metrocard fares are also cheaper than paper ticket fares, so you'd also be saving your family money in the long run regardless of how often you travel.

Paper tickets should be replaced by EFTPOS purchases. Which is what should have occurred on buses instead of no longer selling paper tickets on buses. But that mistake is being mostly fixed after a few lost years. Except the problem that an individual can not buy multiple tickets. The thread of the conversation you may have noticed occur here recently.

The modern paper tickets aka tap and pay is cheaper than Metrocard as the user does not need to pay the initial $5 to buy the metrocard nor go source one prior to travel.
The modern paper ticket is ready in basically everyone's pocket/bag and allows for immediate access to public transport with zero prior financial commitment or prior effort.
Why would anyone want Metrocard when you can just pay like you pay for all other purchases everywhere?

There is one other major oversight as has already been mentioned that concession users also can not use tap and pay.
Fix concession and multiple ticket purchases via tap and pay and you have replaced what paper tickets offered.


Edit: it has been asked what if my car broke down or I got drunk?
Answer: I would pay for a mode of transport that accepted my money. Eg uber or a tap and pay bus/tram.
If adelaidemetro added a free way to create an adelaidemetro card in Google Pay I would create one if needed. I don't understand why this doesn't already exist. Woolworths has supported it for quite for some time now. The federal government released their covid passport card quickly.

[PeFe]

I have been doing a little internet research regarding credit card payments on public transport systems around the the world. Transport for London pioneered this sort of payment and they seem to be in the forefront of this development.

1) I can not find any transport authority that allows concession fares to be paid by credit card (tap and go method) Nor can I find any transport authority that allows more than one ticket purchased for each credit card or device.

2) Transport apps allow concession fares (with the correct documentation justifying the reduced fares) Once the period of concession period ends (without further proof of entitlement) the app reverts to full regular fares.

3) TfL has a daily and weekly cap for credit card tap and go payments. However the "week" is automatic Monday to Sunday. If you want to start a weekly on a different day, or buy a longer timed pass you need an Oyster Card. This suggests that Adelaide Metro is unlikely to offer 14 and 28 day passes to credit card card passengers, it will most likely be Metrocard only.

4) Credit card payments as a solution to infrequent public transport users has numerous flaws......ie not everyone has a credit card, some are just too young or too old and some have no economic sense and should avoid credit cards altogether. The Metrocard is a debit card which prevents accumulation of debt.

5) Credit card payments by international tourists are problematic because you don't even know if your credit card will work. Credit cards issued in the host country will work but the others are a mystery. Adelaide Metro should really qualify this as they publicize the rollout of the new validators...."will accept credit cards issued by an Australian bank". If your First Bank of Belgium Visa card does work on Adelaide transport how much will the international transaction fee be each time? One Euro? Yes some banks offer credit cards with no international transaction fees but they are in the minority and they usually extract money in other ways like high yearly card charges.

[bits]

4) Credit card payments as a solution to infrequent public transport users has numerous flaws......ie not everyone has a credit card, some are just too young or too old and some have no economic sense and should avoid credit cards altogether. The Metrocard is a debit card which prevents accumulation of debt.

Many debit cards from Australian banks are visa/mastercard aligned and capable of tap payment. Eg all BankSA debit cards are visa.
Anyone could add any number of debit or credit cards to their Google, Apple, Samsung (or the wallet provider of your choice) nft payment app. Eg they can add their BankSA debit card and set that as nft available. They could create/add an Adelaide Metro card if Adelaide metro allowed that.
There is hurdles about if those providers currently allow a child to use the app. But kids will have to end up on the same money system as adults as we head cashless.


Most schools recommend various student orientated smart watches running Android these days. Also many have a smart phone. I assume those are where the cash will be added to daily by parents soon enough.

5) Credit card payments by international tourists are problematic because you don't even know if your credit card will work. Credit cards issued in the host country will work but the others are a mystery. Adelaide Metro should really qualify this as they publicize the rollout of the new validators...."will accept credit cards issued by an Australian bank". If your First Bank of Belgium Visa card does work on Adelaide transport how much will the international transaction fee be each time? One Euro? Yes some banks offer credit cards with no international transaction fees but they are in the minority and they usually extract money in other ways like high yearly card charges.

The validator should not charge any extra fees due to which country the card came from. Visa/MasterCard will pay Adelaide metro in aud.
I believe visa and MasterCard support currency exchange for any currency they offer services in.
So if someone from Japan is holding a card connected with visa or MasterCard the transaction should work.
But the Japan card provider likely will charge their customer money exchange and/or international transaction fees. That could be not much or could be lots depending on the fee structure the customer has with the bank.

[bits]

Btw great job on checking up all that!

Google Pay allows selection of the ticket type you will purchase for transit providers that have Google Pay support.
I assume you would just pick the 28 day ticket?

Google claim they have select transit providers onboard in
"
Australia
Canada
India
Japan
Russia
Singapore
Ukraine
United Kingdom
United States
"

https://support.google.com/pay/answer/9 ... %3DAndroid

Looks like Melbourne Myki supports Google Pay so you don't need to buy a physical Myki.

[ChillyPhilly]

What if we move to a standard universal fare?

$2 a day, all day.

Re: NFC payment, perhaps a child's Metrocard could be linked to a parent's account. So the wallet opens, all cards are listed/displayed, and the parent taps on their card and the child's card, then it will be ready for charge by the validator.

[VLtom]

Honestly, moving to a universal fare would probably be pretty silly. Fares are supposed to reflect the ability of people to pay for their journeys, and that's why different classes of people get different concession fares. For example, most high school students will take Adelaide Metro buses. For that they charge the student fare, The peak version of which is $1.35, and off peak $1.05. They are extremely good value fares. Another important part is seniors get off peak free travel on Adelaide Metro buses, which is a unique feature of our system. A universal fare is not reflective of people’s ability to pay for that journeys, regardless of how much the public transport system is subsidised or not.

[PeFe]

What if we move to a standard universal fare?

$2 a day, all day.

Re: NFC payment, perhaps a child's Metrocard could be linked to a parent's account. So the wallet opens, all cards are listed/displayed, and the parent taps on their card and the child's card, then it will be ready for charge by the validator.

$2 a day is nothing.......why even bother charging fares at all.

The 28 day pass @ $106 is still fantastic vale.....$3.78 per day, an absolute bargain in 2021.