News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

[Norman]

Hi, I can't say this without sounding cynical or sarcastic or patronising. I intend none of this.

However, look at the record of this and previous governments on delivering projects on the promised time frame.

On the basis of major projects in the past twenty years, have ANY been delivered on time? Any?

We are currently looking at the Gawler line electrification. Originally pledged to be finished by the end of 2020.

So. The people who gave us the Gawler electrification project...are saying June 2024. I say, based on the record, December at the earliest, and likely June 2025 ot later.

Shall we have a bet on a beer on whether it happens by June 2024? I offer you a carton of your favourite beer as the stake if I am wrong, vs a pint if I am right. Care to place a bet?

Regency to Pym was finished under budget and ahead of schedule and T2T was under budget and extended, and it was finished on time.

Those are just parts of an existing project. They weren't one-offs started from zero.

What was the existing project? They were definitely individual projects, designed from the ground up with different contractors.

But yes, the track record on rail isn't great, even the Flinders Line extension had some delays and cost blow-outs.

[Norman]

55.1 million for future rail projects in SA?
Sydney are expanding their rail at a cost of 50 - 60 BILLION. If that amount of money was converted to a per capita basis it would allow us to build both an underground CBD rail link and underground rail to Mt Barker at the same time. Even though practically both projects would most likely be staggered.
Perhaps once we finish building hospitals our rail infrastructure can start to catch up with the rest of Australia.

Hopefully there will be more funding for more projects in the future as plans, costings and business cases are drawn up. But I imagine the focus on roads over rail will continue for the foreseeable future.

[Patrick_27]

55.1 million for future rail projects in SA?
Sydney are expanding their rail at a cost of 50 - 60 BILLION. If that amount of money was converted to a per capita basis it would allow us to build both an underground CBD rail link and underground rail to Mt Barker at the same time. Even though practically both projects would most likely be staggered.
Perhaps once we finish building hospitals our rail infrastructure can start to catch up with the rest of Australia.

Hopefully there will be more funding for more projects in the future as plans, costings and business cases are drawn up. But I imagine the focus on roads over rail will continue for the foreseeable future.

Perhaps I'm not educated enough on the topic, but there always seems to have been a very uneven distribution of infrastructure funding across Australia. Both the NSW and Victorian governments (namely the latter) continue to argue (or complain rather) that they don't get their fair share of funding based on their state's population; however you've meanwhile got the Victorian government proposing, funding and shovel ready for pipeline, tokenism projects like the suburban rail loop. Surely it's a case that if this money was more evenly distributed for infrastructure projects across the country creating more liveable cities across the board, you'd more likely see population and job growth across the country, no?

[rubberman]

Regency to Pym was finished under budget and ahead of schedule and T2T was under budget and extended, and it was finished on time.

Those are just parts of an existing project. They weren't one-offs started from zero.

What was the existing project? They were definitely individual projects, designed from the ground up with different contractors.

But yes, the track record on rail isn't great, even the Flinders Line extension had some delays and cost blow-outs.

If you look at say, the Pym Street extension, as a stand alone total project, you would include: planning, concept design, environmental approvals, community consultation, governmental approvals such as Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works, land purchase etc. Not just construction. Almost all of that was done in advance as part of the general upgrade of South Road.

You didn't say if you accepted the bet.

[Norman]

If you look at say, the Pym Street extension, as a stand alone total project, you would include: planning, concept design, environmental approvals, community consultation, governmental approvals such as Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works, land purchase etc. Not just construction. Almost all of that was done in advance as part of the general upgrade of South Road.

Hmm, are you sure about that? For example, the funding was announced in May 2018, the final report for the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works was completed until December 2018, the draft design in June 2019 and the final general (not detailed) design in October 2019.

[PD2/20]

Gawler line resumption on Sunday 12th June.

https://www.adelaidemetro.com.au/about- ... ay_12_june

[AG]

Interesting that Adelaide Metro has gone for the same timetable as pre-electrification (other than not stopping at Ovingham), given that the electric trains could easily shave several minutes off the current timetable. The weekend timetable leaves a lot to be desired (all stops, every 30 minutes).

Hopefully the timetable gets revisited once the remaining electric trains on order are all delivered (both capacity and frequency).

[PD2/20]

Interesting that Adelaide Metro has gone for the same timetable as pre-electrification (other than not stopping at Ovingham), given that the electric trains could easily shave several minutes off the current timetable. The weekend timetable leaves a lot to be desired (all stops, every 30 minutes).

Hopefully the timetable gets revisited once the remaining electric trains on order are all delivered (both capacity and frequency).

When Seaford was electrified a new timetable was introduced which gave an increase in frequency to 4 trains per hour off-peak and 8 tph peak. Diesel timings were retained, while electric trains gradually displaced diesels from the service. An accelerated timetable was then adopted. The preclosure Gawler timetable was already 4 tph off-peak with peak expresses. It remains to be seen whether the Gawler service pattern will change now that the Elizabeth turnback has finally been commissioned.

I note that the inner stations still only have 1 tph during weekend daytime despite the increase to 2 tph for evenings which took place on all lines except Grange as recently as 2018.

Last week in testing 6-7 out of 9 off-peak trains were electric. All diesel trains were 3-car which will give an increase in off-peak capacity.

[TorrensSA]

Hopefully there's a new timetable once Ovingham reopens. There's a lot of new development in the inner suburbs and 1 tph on weekends is terrible.
Also the weekday skip stop is archaic, stations such Munno Para and Womma need higher frequencies because they are close to booming new developments in Eyre, Munno Para , Munno Para West, Angle Vale etc. There's also a lot of subdivision happening in the older Elizabeth suburbs, I would say population is going to increase by at least 20% in the older Elizabeth suburbs. Playford and Gawler are booming. There's only a few stations that don't warrant a 15 min interpeak frequency eg Kudla. The train line should be the backbone of public transport.

[PeFe]

The skip-stop pattern used on the Gawler line has got to go........what a disincentive to use public transport!

You are sitting a the train station and you can see the train coming, but no it does not stop, in fact it speeds up......

Time to delete Greenfields, Nurlutta and Gawler Oval stations whilst North Adelaide should retain its heritage building but no trains will stop there.

15 minute daytime service all stations, mixed in with some express trains at peak hour and 30 minute train service to all stations on the weekend.

[1NEEDS2POST]

The skip-stop pattern used on the Gawler line has got to go........what a disincentive to use public transport!

You are sitting a the train station and you can see the train coming, but no it does not stop, in fact it speeds up......

Time to delete Greenfields, Nurlutta and Gawler Oval stations whilst North Adelaide should retain its heritage building but no trains will stop there.

15 minute daytime service all stations, mixed in with some express trains at peak hour and 30 minute train service to all stations on the weekend.

If ARTC builds an Adelaide Hills bypass, there would be enough room for four tracks for Adelaide Metro between North Adelaide and Salisbury. In an ideal world, we could have an all stops train to Salisbury and an express train to Salisbury on different tracks. Perth runs suburban trains at up to 160 km/h and there's no reason we couldn't on that stretch. It would be incredibly fast to those outer suburbs.

[Jacob_ULG3]

The skip-stop pattern used on the Gawler line has got to go........what a disincentive to use public transport!

You are sitting a the train station and you can see the train coming, but no it does not stop, in fact it speeds up......

Time to delete Greenfields, Nurlutta and Gawler Oval stations whilst North Adelaide should retain its heritage building but no trains will stop there.

15 minute daytime service all stations, mixed in with some express trains at peak hour and 30 minute train service to all stations on the weekend.

If ARTC builds an Adelaide Hills bypass, there would be enough room for four tracks for Adelaide Metro between North Adelaide and Salisbury. In an ideal world, we could have an all stops train to Salisbury and an express train to Salisbury on different tracks. Perth runs suburban trains at up to 160 km/h and there's no reason we couldn't on that stretch. It would be incredibly fast to those outer suburbs.

What the new timetable should look like is where it runs kind of similar to how the Seaford/Flinders line works. Have trains run from Adelaide to Gawler and Gawler Central via all stops during interpeak periods until peak hour where they retain the same stop start system, similar to how the Seaford Line does it. With The train stopping at all hi-freq. stops at Adel. Show grounds, Woodlands Pk, Oaklands, Brighton, Hallett Cove and Bch, Noarlunga -> Seaford.

It should be for peak hour do for Gawler Central bound,
Route 1: Adelaide, Ovingham, Dudley Pk, Islington, Mawson Lks, Greenfields, Parafield Gdns, Parafield, Salisbury, Elizabeth, Smithfield, Munno Para, Kudla, Tambelin, Gawler, Oval, Central
Route 2: Adelaide, North Adl, Islington, Kilburn, Dry Creek, Mawson Lakes, Parafield, Chidda, Salisbury, Nurlutta, Elizabeth sth, Elizabeth, Womma, Broadmeadows, Smithfield, Munno Para, Evanston, Gawler, Oval, Central
Route 3: Adelaide, Mawson Lakes, Salisbury, Elizabeth, Smithfield, Munno Para, Gawler, Gawler Oval, Gawler Central
Route 4: Adelaide, North adl, ovingham, dudley pk, islington, Mawson Lakes, greenfields, parafield gdns, parafield, salisbury, nurlutta, elizabeth sth, elizabeth, smithfield, munno para, kudla, tambelin, gawler
Route 5: Adelaide, Mawson Lakes, Salisbury
Route 6: Adelaide, Dry Creek, Mawson Lakes, parafield, Salisbury, Elizabeth

Again this is my brain thinking of possibilities for when we get the full 12 sets for the gawler line and we can utilise them when diesels have faded out.

[TorrensSA]

Yeah that makes it way to complicated. The idea is to get as many services and people on the train in peak. There should be at least 8 tph in peak direction, maybe 3 run express. Simple timetables work the best.

Skip stop sucks and 30 min frequency is shit in interpeak. It's either increase the frequency to 6 tph and have an all stops and express alternating OR 4 tph all stops. The only issue is not all trains can go to Gawler Central. I think all stops 4 tph is the way to go. Over time you will see a change in demand, people will start to use the smaller stations because they will have a good frequency.

[RetroGamer87]

It's strange that the express train from Mawson Lakes to city takes 17 minutes but the non-express train from Mawson Lakes to city also takes 17 minutes.

[rubberman]

Yeah that makes it way to complicated. The idea is to get as many services and people on the train in peak. There should be at least 8 tph in peak direction, maybe 3 run express. Simple timetables work the best.

Skip stop sucks and 30 min frequency is shit in interpeak. It's either increase the frequency to 6 tph and have an all stops and express alternating OR 4 tph all stops. The only issue is not all trains can go to Gawler Central. I think all stops 4 tph is the way to go. Over time you will see a change in demand, people will start to use the smaller stations because they will have a good frequency.

The trouble is that stopping all stops is waaaay slower. Even with the electrics, the design is for higher maximum speed rather than acceleration (although hopefully better than the diesels).

So, it's a question of do people want a fast service with a complicated timetable? Or a much slower service, but more frequent at the smaller stations and simpler to grasp?

That's it. Choose one. Faster, or simpler. But we can't have both.