Overweight trams morphing into trains

[MT269]

The topic has been raised numerous times about closing several stations on the network which are seen as being too close to each other. Instead of suggesting it in multiple posts, I thought I'd create a new thread.

My suggestions for station closures are the following -

Gawler Central line:

Dudley Park
Greenfields
Chidda

Seaford line:

Marino
Warradale
Edwardstown
Clarence Park

Outer Harbor line:

West Croydon
Woodville Park
Cheltenham
Merge Ethelton and Glanville
Merge Peterhead, Largs and Largs North with a station adjacent to Wills St
Draper
Midlunga (to be replaced with a station about halfway in between this one and Osborne).

Time savings would be roughly 10 minutes. I have calculated that a train would take around 29-30 minutes all stops to Outer Harbor. Is this too fast for South Australia?

Grange line:

Relocate East Grange to somewhere closer to Frederick Rd.

Flinders line - Merge Mitchell Park and Clovelly Park

Imagine the time and fuel savings if at least some of these were to see their last train. if the Belair line was to be electrified, it could easily revert to its 2000 timetable.

[Norman]

This topic has come up so many times it's not even funny.

Politically it won't happen because you are taking away a transport option from people.

Operationally it is irrelevant because you can simply run trains as an express service past the stations you think are unworthy of a service.

People have purchased houses near existing train stations because, unlike bus routes and stops, are hard to remove. They expect a train line and a train service to get them to work or wherever they need to go.

I don't see Melbourne closing train stations along the line to Clifton Hill because they are so close together.

I don't see Perth closing stations along the Fremantle Line, even though the station spacing is closer than in Adelaide.

Instead of closing stations, increase express services... or increase densities around stations to increase patronage.

Don't close stations because it looks nice on a map or a timetable. There are real people affected living in real communities.

Now waiting for the inevitable train vs tram debate by rubberman et al, then the conversation will die off, and the same debate will come up in about 12 months time. Super predictable.

[MT269]

Well, I had a glance at the Belair line, and by removing Torrens Park, and Lynton (both to be merged with Clapham), this would enable services to be able to cross just south of Eden Hills, and Adelaide Showgrounds. The 2000s timetable set up would be reintroduced.

A new station called Sleeps Hill or something, just east of Panorama Dr would account for the removal of Lynton. The up service pass at Showgrounds one minute before the down service arrives, which is significantly better than previously. There is a tiny bit of headroom to deploy a ramp or something, without having a flow-on effect. Also, the slow yellow signal approach to Blackwood and Mitcham will no longer be an issue for inter-peak services.

It would reduce travel times from about 40 minutes to about 33 minutes.

Remember that whilst this may inconvenient for quite a few, the rationalisation of the bus network by the LNP had a far worse aftermath from a hypothetical sense. I am simply fathoming how to turn train services into as mentioned, instead of overweight buses with extraordinarily slow acceleration. The CBD bus stop removals years ago had its effect as well.

[rooshooter]

From daily lived experience on the OH line, removing the West Croydon and Woodville Park stations would be a massive inconvenience to the many PAX who use these stations every day.

For two minutes recovery? Yeah nah. No matter whether it would improve times or not, any station removal would be seen as a negative impact by the public.

I agree that some stations are not well positioned, maybe some should merge? I don't know...

I'd rather see positive improvements to the network (new signalling, grade separations, better bus connections, improved station facilities et al), than negative (station removals, merging etc).

[cocoiadrop]

As I said elsewhere, the answer is improving signalling and adding CBTC https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/i ... ernisation signalling so that trains can decelrated and accelerate faster. This can be done without job losses - the train drivers will still be required to drive manually in sections (in London, on Sundays for skill retention), and they will need to ensure the safety of passengers in operation as they currently do.

Removing stations will destroy what is already a limited option for public transport in Adelaide. Many of these places are left without walkable (for all people) bus stops and even if so at poor frequencies.

[Nort]

If you get rid of all the stations then without passengers alighting the trains can just run express from one end to another. Add loops at the end and they never have to stop, can't get faster than that!

[MT269]

That's a good way to see it. I was thinking of removing Adelaide as well, to remove the need for drivers to change ends. This would require some investment to commission a multi track bypass where the Gaol loop is now. The question is though, should the passengers be dropped off at North Adelaide, Mile End, or Keswick? With Adelaide station closed, there will be no requirement to run any substitute services.

Scania bus 5005 has a chassis which can accommodate rail axles, and work in a bi-directional fashion, due to being double ended. It might be suitable for Grange/Flinders services at quiet times.

[mattwinter]

The huge backlash to closing the old Tonsley station a few years ago is proof that closing stations can't be done easily and will need better reasoning behind it than saving a few minutes journey time. Most likely scenario for some changes is when they decided to do a grade separation or something and that leads to an opportunity to merge a station. But I can't think of many of those examples... mabye if the Seaford line was grade seperated from Cross Road they could look at Edwardstown and Emerson and merging them?

Agree with posts above. There are other ways to speed up services. More express services etc. On weekends and evenings when the Seaford line goes express from Woodlands Park to the city it's fantastic.

[Patrick_27]

Of all of those suggested here, there are only two I agree with:

Merge Emerson / Clarence Park Stations somewhere in between. If not for the practicality of combining two reasonably frequented stations into a singular improved station, then for the fact that the stoppage of trains at both East Ave and Cross Road make road traffic at these intersections all the more painful due to where the stations are located. You couldn’t justify a tunnel for that entire stretch but a station merger would allow for all the embarking and disembarking of passengers to happen away from two vital road corridors.

The other being a Torrens Park / Lyndon merger with a reopened Clapham Station; Torrens Park Station is 500m from Mitcham Station, it’s dilapidated and has terrible public access. The former Clapham Station on the other hand is well connected to Springbank Road and the bus routes associated (there is even room for an interchange of sorts if ever required), and both Torrens Park and Lyndon Stations are well within reasonable walking distance. You could open a new station beyond Eden Hills to broaden the service between there and Coromandel, or simply move Eden Hills further up the hill away from Clapham to spread the load. Whilst some could argue over the merits of closing Torrens Park for something as simply as the distance between that and Mitcham, let’s not forget that it’s the same reason they won’t reopen Hawthorn Station because of there being the same or lesser distance between Unley Park and Mitcham and Hawthorne.

But then, with anything Belair Line related, all this will likely be subject for review when the transport department actually figure out what they want to do with that line.

[mattwinter]

Merge Emerson / Clarence Park Stations somewhere in between. If not for the practicality of combining two reasonably frequented stations into a singular improved station, then for the fact that the stoppage of trains at both East Ave and Cross Road make road traffic at these intersections all the more painful due to where the stations are located. You couldn’t justify a tunnel for that entire stretch but a station merger would allow for all the embarking and disembarking of passengers to happen away from two vital road corridors.

There'd be an opportunity to fix one of the last gaps in the Marino Rocks greenway by moving Emerson station too. Hope they're planning at least a review of the South Road / Cross Road intersection and that grade seperating the train line there is at least something they'll think about in the next decade. Merging stations could be a cheaper way for a couple of quick wins.

[1NEEDS2POST]

Adopting a skip-stop pattern for Grange/Outer Harbor/Grange and Flinders/Seaford will achieve a similar thing. For example, Grange trains could stop at Adelaide, Bowden, West Croydon, Woodville Park, Woodville, while Outer Harbor trains stop at Adelaide, Bowden, Croydon, Kilkenny, Woodville. Flinders/Seaford is a bit more tricky because I think they should both stop at Woodlands Park since it's the last station they share and Goodwood since it's an interchange. That leaves and odd number of stations to skip-stop.

Skip-stop is better than express trains because it's consistent and passengers know which stops each train will stop at. A similar thing happens on Gawler trains during peak periods.

The largest problem with trains in Adelaide is their low frequency. If a train comes every 30 minutes, then on average, that adds 15 minutes to your journey time. If a train comes every 10 minutes, then the average waiting time is cut to 5 minutes. This 10 minute saving is greater than any time savings from station rationalisation.

[MT269]

I don't think that having services run express between Dry Creek and Adelaide on weekends is the smartest idea from the boofheads in that box on North Tce, or the one in Grenfell St.

There are no regular bus services which serve Dry Creek. Someone on social media tried to justify this, under the guise of it supposedly being a shadow of the current weekday pattern. It is totally brainless.

I'd be interested to see the draft timetable for the Port Dock extension. I think that they should add an additional branch line, which leaves just south of Alberton to serve Queenstown. Could move the bus interchange from Port to here as well. This would further complicate the connections, and redefine the status quo. But would be consistent with SA planning 25 years too late.

[PeFe]

I don't think that having services run express between Dry Creek and Adelaide on weekends is the smartest idea from the boofheads in that box on North Tce, or the one in Grenfell St.

There are no regular bus services which serve Dry Creek. Someone on social media tried to justify this, under the guise of it supposedly being a shadow of the current weekday pattern. It is totally brainless.

I'd be interested to see the draft timetable for the Port Dock extension. I think that they should add an additional branch line, which leaves just south of Alberton to serve Queenstown. Could move the bus interchange from Port to here as well. This would further complicate the connections, and redefine the status quo. But would be consistent with SA planning 25 years too late.

Dry Creek receives a train service every 30 minutes on the weekend.....how many people are looking to travel to Dry Creek via public transport? My guess the number would be very low.

The other stations on the inner north section of the Gawler line have 60 minute frequencies daytime on the weekend....not the best, especially if you don't know that the parallel Churchill Rd bus runs every 30 minutes, giving commuters a choice of train and bus.

Also mods is this thread really necessary? Every post deals with subject of the Adelaide Metro trains.....we already have a thread for that...surely all the posts in this thread could be moved there.

We don't need to turn this forum into Railpage where every thought bubble is turned into a subject thread.