News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

[rubberman]

Are any of those things you mentioned, contributing factors to the constant increase in what consumers are paying for electricity?
What other reasons are contributing to it.

Governments keep promising they'll do something, but so far we see them doing nothing that is bringing the cost down or at the very least stabilising it.

Above I was just pointing out that its not just peoples choices.
Im sure we're all happy for Bits that's he's 95% self sufficient and has a solar+battery setup. Im sure we're all happy he can afford that setup, its not cheap particularly sufficient battery storage.

Is everyone else in the same boat, able to afford such setups?
Clearly not.

On top of that, we live in a time when everyone is concious of energy use/waste. Many people are doing what they can afford, for many that is just turning off power points and switching to LED globes around the house. For most pensioners its not running heating or air-conditioning because they can't afford the rising costs.

So it has little to do with the pig headed dismissive attitude you'd expect from a conservative politician of "its your own fault because of the choices you've made".

Prices aren't rising by 22% because of lifestyle choices.

Those things I mentioned are a big part, if not the biggest part of the cost increases.

They are only going to get worse. renewables are likely the least expensive.

Much of electricity generation is privatised, so governments can't do anything about generation costs going up. Another big cause of increased prices is network costs. Network renewal happens regardless, so not a lot governments can do there either.

Generation costs are going up whether it's coal, gas, nuke, renewables. Renewables likely the least expensive.

Distribution costs are going up, no matter what. Likely renewables cause a bigger rise.

Costs are going up regardless. There's nothing governments can do to make it cheaper.

[rhino]

Apparently South Australian costs are also higher due to a larger gap between average demand and peak demand in South Australia, compared to other regions in the NEM, which means that both the transmission and distribution infrastructure has to be large enough to handle significant peaks which occur only a few days per year.

[rev]

Are any of those things you mentioned, contributing factors to the constant increase in what consumers are paying for electricity?
What other reasons are contributing to it.

Governments keep promising they'll do something, but so far we see them doing nothing that is bringing the cost down or at the very least stabilising it.

Above I was just pointing out that its not just peoples choices.
Im sure we're all happy for Bits that's he's 95% self sufficient and has a solar+battery setup. Im sure we're all happy he can afford that setup, its not cheap particularly sufficient battery storage.

Is everyone else in the same boat, able to afford such setups?
Clearly not.

On top of that, we live in a time when everyone is concious of energy use/waste. Many people are doing what they can afford, for many that is just turning off power points and switching to LED globes around the house. For most pensioners its not running heating or air-conditioning because they can't afford the rising costs.

So it has little to do with the pig headed dismissive attitude you'd expect from a conservative politician of "its your own fault because of the choices you've made".

Prices aren't rising by 22% because of lifestyle choices.

Those things I mentioned are a big part, if not the biggest part of the cost increases.

They are only going to get worse. renewables are likely the least expensive.

Much of electricity generation is privatised, so governments can't do anything about generation costs going up. Another big cause of increased prices is network costs. Network renewal happens regardless, so not a lot governments can do there either.

Generation costs are going up whether it's coal, gas, nuke, renewables. Renewables likely the least expensive.

Distribution costs are going up, no matter what. Likely renewables cause a bigger rise.

Costs are going up regardless. There's nothing governments can do to make it cheaper.

An abundance of coal.
An abundance of gas.
An abundance of uranium.
A variety of renewable technologies etc.

All privatised. Theres a major problem for starters. How much of it is owned by Australian private companies and how much foreign owned? Where are the major shareholders of the foreign owned companies..not in Australia thats for sure.

Which politician was it that said one of the reasons our prices keep going up is because of the privatisation/sale agreements?
I dont recall the government of the time, Liberal coalition I think, denying or disputing that, or anyone from the industry doing so either.

Ironic that much of the renewable developments are by Chinese firms, yet over in China they're not slowing down on the construction of new coal power plants.

The only reason coal plants aren't being replaced with new ones is because the globalist climate cult has got a foothold here.
A handful of coal plants in Australia aren't going to make a shred of difference when China is building ten times the amount at least lol.

Its like trying to clean the Torrens and being convinced its going to save the worlds marine life because 10 coke bottles didn't make it to the Spencer Gulf, when major rivers in Brazil, India and China are the most polluted waterways in the world by magnitudes we can't imagine.

Are they still allowing our gas to be shipped off to China and Japan cheaper then what we get it for? Of course they are.

WA requires resource companies to keep 15% of gas as a reserve for use by WA.

Governments can do something.
If they wanted to, like WA has, which has cheaper gas.

[rubberman]

Are any of those things you mentioned, contributing factors to the constant increase in what consumers are paying for electricity?
What other reasons are contributing to it.

Governments keep promising they'll do something, but so far we see them doing nothing that is bringing the cost down or at the very least stabilising it.

Above I was just pointing out that its not just peoples choices.
Im sure we're all happy for Bits that's he's 95% self sufficient and has a solar+battery setup. Im sure we're all happy he can afford that setup, its not cheap particularly sufficient battery storage.

Is everyone else in the same boat, able to afford such setups?
Clearly not.

On top of that, we live in a time when everyone is concious of energy use/waste. Many people are doing what they can afford, for many that is just turning off power points and switching to LED globes around the house. For most pensioners its not running heating or air-conditioning because they can't afford the rising costs.

So it has little to do with the pig headed dismissive attitude you'd expect from a conservative politician of "its your own fault because of the choices you've made".

Prices aren't rising by 22% because of lifestyle choices.

Those things I mentioned are a big part, if not the biggest part of the cost increases.

They are only going to get worse. renewables are likely the least expensive.

Much of electricity generation is privatised, so governments can't do anything about generation costs going up. Another big cause of increased prices is network costs. Network renewal happens regardless, so not a lot governments can do there either.

Generation costs are going up whether it's coal, gas, nuke, renewables. Renewables likely the least expensive.

Distribution costs are going up, no matter what. Likely renewables cause a bigger rise.

Costs are going up regardless. There's nothing governments can do to make it cheaper.

An abundance of coal.
An abundance of gas.
An abundance of uranium.
A variety of renewable technologies etc.

All privatised. Theres a major problem for starters. How much of it is owned by Australian private companies and how much foreign owned? Where are the major shareholders of the foreign owned companies..not in Australia thats for sure.

Which politician was it that said one of the reasons our prices keep going up is because of the privatisation/sale agreements?
I dont recall the government of the time, Liberal coalition I think, denying or disputing that, or anyone from the industry doing so either.

Ironic that much of the renewable developments are by Chinese firms, yet over in China they're not slowing down on the construction of new coal power plants.

The only reason coal plants aren't being replaced with new ones is because the globalist climate cult has got a foothold here.
A handful of coal plants in Australia aren't going to make a shred of difference when China is building ten times the amount at least lol.

Its like trying to clean the Torrens and being convinced its going to save the worlds marine life because 10 coke bottles didn't make it to the Spencer Gulf, when major rivers in Brazil, India and China are the most polluted waterways in the world by magnitudes we can't imagine.

Are they still allowing our gas to be shipped off to China and Japan cheaper then what we get it for? Of course they are.

WA requires resource companies to keep 15% of gas as a reserve for use by WA.

Governments can do something.
If they wanted to, like WA has, which has cheaper gas.

The only reason anyone is now building coal plants is if they are built or guaranteed by the government.

The "globalist climate cult" has zero to do with it. Zero. That's utter bullshit. The likes of AGL, Alinta, aren't building new plants because they can't convince anyone with a lick of common sense to invest. Investment banks won't touch them with a barge pole unless governments guarantee them against losses. Investors won't touch them either.

And the reason is like simple grade 3 arithmetic. You can only make a profit on coal/nuclear plants if you finance them over a fifty year life. Anything less, and the depreciation costs kill them. You cannot make a profit without a fifty year guaranteed life. It. Is. Not. Possible. With the cost of renewables going down steeply, you simply cannot guarantee a fifty year life where coal is cheaper than renewables. No sane Investors are going to bet that renewables won't be cheaper within 50 years. Heck, they are close now, and in some cases cheaper. You want to lose money? Invest in coal.

Nothing to do with a "globalist climate cult". It's grade 3 arithmetic and common sense unless you can get governments (ie we the taxpayers) to take the risk. Stuff that. I'm not wanting to pay increased taxes.

[SBD]

What is it that makes investment in South Australian renewable electricity generation attractive for foreign investment? IF we see that as a problem, what needs to change to encourage more Australian investment instead?

AGL is an ASX-listed company, and most shareholders are Australian, the largest is Mike Cannon-Brooks. It owns several wind farms, and is one of the partners in the PowAR Consortium (the other partners are owned by the Queensland and Federal governments) which owns and develops wind farms too, including under the brandname of Tilt Renewables. I haven't quickly found any other Australian-owned wind or large solar farms in SA. There are several 3-5MW solar farms owned by SA Water so the long water pipelines don't need grid electricity most of the time.

[rubberman]

What is it that makes investment in South Australian renewable electricity generation attractive for foreign investment? IF we see that as a problem, what needs to change to encourage more Australian investment instead?

AGL is an ASX-listed company, and most shareholders are Australian, the largest is Mike Cannon-Brooks. It owns several wind farms, and is one of the partners in the PowAR Consortium (the other partners are owned by the Queensland and Federal governments) which owns and develops wind farms too, including under the brandname of Tilt Renewables. I haven't quickly found any other Australian-owned wind or large solar farms in SA. There are several 3-5MW solar farms owned by SA Water so the long water pipelines don't need grid electricity most of the time.

One of the things that make solar and wind extremely attractive for SAWater is that the major pipelines and larger pumping stations were designed specifically for intermittent operation. Originally, the EWS Department designed those stations so they operated at off peak periods as loads for ETSA, so ETSA could keep its boilers going even when other loads were low. Now, EWS Dept is SAWater, ETSA no longer exists as do our former coal power stations. But solar and wind? Great for SAWater's systems designed for intermittent operation.

[rev]

Those things I mentioned are a big part, if not the biggest part of the cost increases.

They are only going to get worse. renewables are likely the least expensive.

Much of electricity generation is privatised, so governments can't do anything about generation costs going up. Another big cause of increased prices is network costs. Network renewal happens regardless, so not a lot governments can do there either.

Generation costs are going up whether it's coal, gas, nuke, renewables. Renewables likely the least expensive.

Distribution costs are going up, no matter what. Likely renewables cause a bigger rise.

Costs are going up regardless. There's nothing governments can do to make it cheaper.

An abundance of coal.
An abundance of gas.
An abundance of uranium.
A variety of renewable technologies etc.

All privatised. Theres a major problem for starters. How much of it is owned by Australian private companies and how much foreign owned? Where are the major shareholders of the foreign owned companies..not in Australia thats for sure.

Which politician was it that said one of the reasons our prices keep going up is because of the privatisation/sale agreements?
I dont recall the government of the time, Liberal coalition I think, denying or disputing that, or anyone from the industry doing so either.

Ironic that much of the renewable developments are by Chinese firms, yet over in China they're not slowing down on the construction of new coal power plants.

The only reason coal plants aren't being replaced with new ones is because the globalist climate cult has got a foothold here.
A handful of coal plants in Australia aren't going to make a shred of difference when China is building ten times the amount at least lol.

Its like trying to clean the Torrens and being convinced its going to save the worlds marine life because 10 coke bottles didn't make it to the Spencer Gulf, when major rivers in Brazil, India and China are the most polluted waterways in the world by magnitudes we can't imagine.

Are they still allowing our gas to be shipped off to China and Japan cheaper then what we get it for? Of course they are.

WA requires resource companies to keep 15% of gas as a reserve for use by WA.

Governments can do something.
If they wanted to, like WA has, which has cheaper gas.

The only reason anyone is now building coal plants is if they are built or guaranteed by the government.

The "globalist climate cult" has zero to do with it. Zero. That's utter bullshit. The likes of AGL, Alinta, aren't building new plants because they can't convince anyone with a lick of common sense to invest. Investment banks won't touch them with a barge pole unless governments guarantee them against losses. Investors won't touch them either.

And the reason is like simple grade 3 arithmetic. You can only make a profit on coal/nuclear plants if you finance them over a fifty year life. Anything less, and the depreciation costs kill them. You cannot make a profit without a fifty year guaranteed life. It. Is. Not. Possible. With the cost of renewables going down steeply, you simply cannot guarantee a fifty year life where coal is cheaper than renewables. No sane Investors are going to bet that renewables won't be cheaper within 50 years. Heck, they are close now, and in some cases cheaper. You want to lose money? Invest in coal.

Nothing to do with a "globalist climate cult". It's grade 3 arithmetic and common sense unless you can get governments (ie we the taxpayers) to take the risk. Stuff that. I'm not wanting to pay increased taxes.

You don't want to pay higher taxes, even though you will one way or another, but you see no problem with the ever increasing cost of living, including the continued increase in electricity for consumers.

We have an abundance of energy resources. Which are being shunned by the climate cult that could provide a reliable and cheap source of power for consumers and industries. Oh no, nobody's going to fund any of it unless its backed by government. Yeh no shit, because the climate cult has wormed it's way in. Thanks for confirming
Other countries that have an abundance of even just one energy resource, have cheap reliable supply for their people. Big difference they don't have these ideological climate cult nut jobs running around like we do.
But Australia oh no, we need to worry about the energy retailers, like the lady from the regulator said last week on the news, "they're operating on razor thin profits"...those poor souls must be struggling, here, have some more of our hard earned money. It's alright, the average person can skip a few dinners every week to help out the energy companies.

There's European countries turning back to nuclear btw. I believe some agreement was signed the other week.
France is about to pass a law to speed up the construction of new reactors and scrap other limiting laws.

But Australia that's ruled out everything but renewables definitely does not have a climate cult

[rubberman]

An abundance of coal.
An abundance of gas.
An abundance of uranium.
A variety of renewable technologies etc.

All privatised. Theres a major problem for starters. How much of it is owned by Australian private companies and how much foreign owned? Where are the major shareholders of the foreign owned companies..not in Australia thats for sure.

Which politician was it that said one of the reasons our prices keep going up is because of the privatisation/sale agreements?
I dont recall the government of the time, Liberal coalition I think, denying or disputing that, or anyone from the industry doing so either.

Ironic that much of the renewable developments are by Chinese firms, yet over in China they're not slowing down on the construction of new coal power plants.

The only reason coal plants aren't being replaced with new ones is because the globalist climate cult has got a foothold here.
A handful of coal plants in Australia aren't going to make a shred of difference when China is building ten times the amount at least lol.

Its like trying to clean the Torrens and being convinced its going to save the worlds marine life because 10 coke bottles didn't make it to the Spencer Gulf, when major rivers in Brazil, India and China are the most polluted waterways in the world by magnitudes we can't imagine.

Are they still allowing our gas to be shipped off to China and Japan cheaper then what we get it for? Of course they are.

WA requires resource companies to keep 15% of gas as a reserve for use by WA.

Governments can do something.
If they wanted to, like WA has, which has cheaper gas.

The only reason anyone is now building coal plants is if they are built or guaranteed by the government.

The "globalist climate cult" has zero to do with it. Zero. That's utter bullshit. The likes of AGL, Alinta, aren't building new plants because they can't convince anyone with a lick of common sense to invest. Investment banks won't touch them with a barge pole unless governments guarantee them against losses. Investors won't touch them either.

And the reason is like simple grade 3 arithmetic. You can only make a profit on coal/nuclear plants if you finance them over a fifty year life. Anything less, and the depreciation costs kill them. You cannot make a profit without a fifty year guaranteed life. It. Is. Not. Possible. With the cost of renewables going down steeply, you simply cannot guarantee a fifty year life where coal is cheaper than renewables. No sane Investors are going to bet that renewables won't be cheaper within 50 years. Heck, they are close now, and in some cases cheaper. You want to lose money? Invest in coal.

Nothing to do with a "globalist climate cult". It's grade 3 arithmetic and common sense unless you can get governments (ie we the taxpayers) to take the risk. Stuff that. I'm not wanting to pay increased taxes.

You don't want to pay higher taxes, even though you will one way or another, but you see no problem with the ever increasing cost of living, including the continued increase in electricity for consumers.

We have an abundance of energy resources. Which are being shunned by the climate cult that could provide a reliable and cheap source of power for consumers and industries. Oh no, nobody's going to fund any of it unless its backed by government. Yeh no shit, because the climate cult has wormed it's way in. Thanks for confirming
Other countries that have an abundance of even just one energy resource, have cheap reliable supply for their people. Big difference they don't have these ideological climate cult nut jobs running around like we do.
But Australia oh no, we need to worry about the energy retailers, like the lady from the regulator said last week on the news, "they're operating on razor thin profits"...those poor souls must be struggling, here, have some more of our hard earned money. It's alright, the average person can skip a few dinners every week to help out the energy companies.

There's European countries turning back to nuclear btw. I believe some agreement was signed the other week.
France is about to pass a law to speed up the construction of new reactors and scrap other limiting laws.

But Australia that's ruled out everything but renewables definitely does not have a climate cult

That is nonsense. If there was a chance that you were right, then the Boards of AGL, Alinta etc etc would be pushing for it.

Look. You can spout as many conspiracy theories as you like. However, your position makes no sense to anyone with money to invest. You go on about the cost of fuel as if it's the major cost. It isn't. The biggest cost by far is capital cost. Even then, you aren't logically consistent. If, as you are saying cheap fuel is the biggest factor, then by your own reasoning wind and solar should be even cheaper because wind and sun are free. Well, just like coal and nukes, renewables also have to pay off capital. When you compare like for like, coal is just too risky. Plus, of course, the idea that the Boards of these companies and merchant banks are climate change believers is hysterical. They are as conservative as it's possible to be. However, even they cannot make an economic case for coal or nuclear.

It's not that I don't care about rising costs, it's just that building new plants of any sort is going to increase costs. Coal, nuclear, renewables. All new plants are going to cost an arm and a leg. What do you expect the government to do? Wave a magic wand? Besides, remember, it was right wing voters in this country who privatised most of the power generation. Now those private companies are demolishing coal plants. Thise who voted for privatisation are the ones you need to complain to.

Australia had a right wing government for 9 years. With coal loving PM and Ministers. Even they couldn't convince industry to build coal or nuclear. And for heaven's sake don't try to tell us they couldn't have changed the laws to allow nukes. They didn't even try.

[rev]

That is nonsense. If there was a chance that you were right, then the Boards of AGL, Alinta etc etc would be pushing for it.

Look. You can spout as many conspiracy theories as you like. However, your position makes no sense to anyone with money to invest. You go on about the cost of fuel as if it's the major cost. It isn't. The biggest cost by far is capital cost. Even then, you aren't logically consistent. If, as you are saying cheap fuel is the biggest factor, then by your own reasoning wind and solar should be even cheaper because wind and sun are free. Well, just like coal and nukes, renewables also have to pay off capital. When you compare like for like, coal is just too risky. Plus, of course, the idea that the Boards of these companies and merchant banks are climate change believers is hysterical. They are as conservative as it's possible to be. However, even they cannot make an economic case for coal or nuclear.

It's not that I don't care about rising costs, it's just that building new plants of any sort is going to increase costs. Coal, nuclear, renewables. All new plants are going to cost an arm and a leg. What do you expect the government to do? Wave a magic wand? Besides, remember, it was right wing voters in this country who privatised most of the power generation. Now those private companies are demolishing coal plants. Thise who voted for privatisation are the ones you need to complain to.

Australia had a right wing government for 9 years. With coal loving PM and Ministers. Even they couldn't convince industry to build coal or nuclear. And for heaven's sake don't try to tell us they couldn't have changed the laws to allow nukes. They didn't even try.

What conspiracy theories? I know it's the latest fashion to dismiss people who don't agree with you as a conspiracy theorist, but come on..
Are you saying there isn't a a claimed "climate emergency" in this country now? Are you saying that that is not what is being pushed? I refer to these people as a cult, it's just my words to describe the lot of them, from the clowns on tv to the clowns in the streets who glue them selves to the roads.

[rubberman]

That is nonsense. If there was a chance that you were right, then the Boards of AGL, Alinta etc etc would be pushing for it.

Look. You can spout as many conspiracy theories as you like. However, your position makes no sense to anyone with money to invest. You go on about the cost of fuel as if it's the major cost. It isn't. The biggest cost by far is capital cost. Even then, you aren't logically consistent. If, as you are saying cheap fuel is the biggest factor, then by your own reasoning wind and solar should be even cheaper because wind and sun are free. Well, just like coal and nukes, renewables also have to pay off capital. When you compare like for like, coal is just too risky. Plus, of course, the idea that the Boards of these companies and merchant banks are climate change believers is hysterical. They are as conservative as it's possible to be. However, even they cannot make an economic case for coal or nuclear.

It's not that I don't care about rising costs, it's just that building new plants of any sort is going to increase costs. Coal, nuclear, renewables. All new plants are going to cost an arm and a leg. What do you expect the government to do? Wave a magic wand? Besides, remember, it was right wing voters in this country who privatised most of the power generation. Now those private companies are demolishing coal plants. Thise who voted for privatisation are the ones you need to complain to.

Australia had a right wing government for 9 years. With coal loving PM and Ministers. Even they couldn't convince industry to build coal or nuclear. And for heaven's sake don't try to tell us they couldn't have changed the laws to allow nukes. They didn't even try.

What conspiracy theories? I know it's the latest fashion to dismiss people who don't agree with you as a conspiracy theorist, but come on..
Are you saying there isn't a a claimed "climate emergency" in this country now? Are you saying that that is not what is being pushed? I refer to these people as a cult, it's just my words to describe the lot of them, from the clowns on tv to the clowns in the streets who glue them selves to the roads.

I was talking about the economics of coal plants. You haven't even attempted to address that.

But do go on.

[rev]

That is nonsense. If there was a chance that you were right, then the Boards of AGL, Alinta etc etc would be pushing for it.

Look. You can spout as many conspiracy theories as you like. However, your position makes no sense to anyone with money to invest. You go on about the cost of fuel as if it's the major cost. It isn't. The biggest cost by far is capital cost. Even then, you aren't logically consistent. If, as you are saying cheap fuel is the biggest factor, then by your own reasoning wind and solar should be even cheaper because wind and sun are free. Well, just like coal and nukes, renewables also have to pay off capital. When you compare like for like, coal is just too risky. Plus, of course, the idea that the Boards of these companies and merchant banks are climate change believers is hysterical. They are as conservative as it's possible to be. However, even they cannot make an economic case for coal or nuclear.

It's not that I don't care about rising costs, it's just that building new plants of any sort is going to increase costs. Coal, nuclear, renewables. All new plants are going to cost an arm and a leg. What do you expect the government to do? Wave a magic wand? Besides, remember, it was right wing voters in this country who privatised most of the power generation. Now those private companies are demolishing coal plants. Thise who voted for privatisation are the ones you need to complain to.

Australia had a right wing government for 9 years. With coal loving PM and Ministers. Even they couldn't convince industry to build coal or nuclear. And for heaven's sake don't try to tell us they couldn't have changed the laws to allow nukes. They didn't even try.

What conspiracy theories? I know it's the latest fashion to dismiss people who don't agree with you as a conspiracy theorist, but come on..
Are you saying there isn't a a claimed "climate emergency" in this country now? Are you saying that that is not what is being pushed? I refer to these people as a cult, it's just my words to describe the lot of them, from the clowns on tv to the clowns in the streets who glue them selves to the roads.

I was talking about the economics of coal plants. You haven't even attempted to address that.

But do go on.

I haven't disagreed/agreed on that? But ok..even if I had, somehow that would be a conspiracy theory?

[Nort]

FFS, it's ok for people to say no to having increased CO2 levels pushed on them.

[claybro]

FFS, it's ok for people to say no to having increased CO2 levels pushed on them.

Regardless of what we in Australia do, we face increased C02 because the likes of… well most other countries, are either constructing new, or re opening old coal generation. It is also ok for people to question at massive price increases in electricity, as older generation is closed, due to unfavourable policy settings, designed exactly to end those generators.

[PeFe]

… well most other countries, are either constructing new, or re opening old coal generation.

83% of new electricity generation on the planet last year was renewables.

https://electrek.co/2023/03/21/the-worl ... s-in-2022/

[SBD]

There have been a number of occasions when the SA grid has been mostly wind and solar, with just the minimum amount of gas generation that AEMO would allow. That minimum reduced when the Synchronous Condensers were installed. Newer large batteries have smarter inverter stuff I don't understand. There's a reasonable chance that at some point in the future, AEMO will permit the state to run with no gas generators online.

Once Project EnergyConnect is active, presumably it will take all the electricity that can be generated at the times when wholesale SA electricity is currently negative. There are currently periods when SA imports large amounts of electricity. I don't know if this is because the coal generators have to keep turning, and it gets dumped on us at marginal cost, or if it is that it's dark and still air here. If the latter, then the logs show clearly how much storage (batteries, pumped hydro, liquid salt or whatever) is needed to maintain self-sufficiency.

Then the question becomes how long a gas (or diesel) turbine will last and what it costs to keep it available if it is almost never used, except to refresh the fuel tank every now and then.