News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

[rubberman]

FFS, it's ok for people to say no to having increased CO2 levels pushed on them.

Regardless of what we in Australia do, we face increased C02 because the likes of… well most other countries, are either constructing new, or re opening old coal generation. It is also ok for people to question at massive price increases in electricity, as older generation is closed, due to unfavourable policy settings, designed exactly to end those generators.

What policy settings?

While it would be difficult to set up a new greenfield site, there's almost nothing stopping an existing generator from replacing plant...which would in practice mean indefinite life...if they thought it worth while. Plus, of course, we had a pro coal government for 9 years. If a policy setting was required to be changed, then the PM who bought a lump of coal into Parliament would have changed the policy settings.

[rev]

… well most other countries, are either constructing new, or re opening old coal generation.

83% of new electricity generation on the planet last year was renewables.

https://electrek.co/2023/03/21/the-worl ... s-in-2022/

[PeFe]

… well most other countries, are either constructing new, or re opening old coal generation.

83% of new electricity generation on the planet last year was renewables.

https://electrek.co/2023/03/21/the-worl ... s-in-2022/

electricity-production-by-source.png

I was talking about NEW electricity production so you post a map about existing electricity production.....

[SBD]

83% of new electricity generation on the planet last year was renewables.

https://electrek.co/2023/03/21/the-worl ... s-in-2022/

electricity-production-by-source.png

I was talking about NEW electricity production so you post a map about existing electricity production.....

The chart does not directly address your point, but some information can be gained from it. One thing that stood out is the stunning growth in total electricity production (the sum of all the lines) over the period. I guess we don't see how big any corresponding reduction in other energy sources has been (changing from a wood fire or gas furnace to an electric heater for example).

Second is that Coal generation rose again in 2021 after declining in 2019 and 2020. Nuclear has been pretty much stable for the last two decades. Coal and gas both seem to be growing linear, whereas wind and solar are building faster (but from a much lower base).

[claybro]

To add to this observation, the graph is nearly 2 years old? Since russian gas is now verboten in Europe, coal and gas would show a sharp rise in use since 2022. The likes of Germany, and the uk are reinstating coal. There is a standoff in Germany as they are now trying to move a village to access more brown coal, and they have managed to build a new gas import facility for LNG in 12 months. That’s a lot of investment for so called stranded assets, in a country renowned for being world leaders in renewables.

[rubberman]

To add to this observation, the graph is nearly 2 years old? Since russian gas is now verboten in Europe, coal and gas would show a sharp rise in use since 2022. The likes of Germany, and the uk are reinstating coal. There is a standoff in Germany as they are now trying to move a village to access more brown coal, and they have managed to build a new gas import facility for LNG in 12 months. That’s a lot of investment for so called stranded assets, in a country renowned for being world leaders in renewables.

I'm not sure how the situation in Europe is relevant to Australia. Germany abandoned coal because gas from Russia was cheaper. It now can't get the cheaper gas, so it is reopening mothballed coal plants...which are more expensive to operate.

How is that relevant to Australia? Are you proposing that instead of demolishing coal plants at the end of their life, we should mothball them in case we need them for some reason?

Further, those German coal plants aren't stranded assets. Putting plant into mothballs as a reserve against the exact scenario being played out in Europe doesn't qualify as such.

Nothing in that graph, or for subsequent years, changes the fact that coal plants being built are mostly only happening because of government guarantees. That is, add the cost of extra taxes to the price of power coming from these plants to get the real cost of coal power.

[claybro]

To add to this observation, the graph is nearly 2 years old? Since russian gas is now verboten in Europe, coal and gas would show a sharp rise in use since 2022. The likes of Germany, and the uk are reinstating coal. There is a standoff in Germany as they are now trying to move a village to access more brown coal, and they have managed to build a new gas import facility for LNG in 12 months. That’s a lot of investment for so called stranded assets, in a country renowned for being world leaders in renewables.

I'm not sure how the situation in Europe is relevant to Australia. Germany abandoned coal because gas from Russia was cheaper. It now can't get the cheaper gas, so it is reopening mothballed coal plants...which are more expensive to operate.

How is that relevant to Australia? Are you proposing that instead of demolishing coal plants at the end of their life, we should mothball them in case we need them for some reason?

Further, those German coal plants aren't stranded assets. Putting plant into mothballs as a reserve against the exact scenario being played out in Europe doesn't qualify as such.

Nothing in that graph, or for subsequent years, changes the fact that coal plants being built are mostly only happening because of government guarantees. That is, add the cost of extra taxes to the price of power coming from these plants to get the real cost of coal power.

Coal plants are being built or re opened world wide because renewables have been proven in large industrial economies to be not up to the task. Germany was relying on Russian gas, because despite decades of massive investment in renewables.. they are inadequate. How does this relate to Australia? Well significant forces in Australian politics ie greens and teals want all new coal mines banned. As little as 2 years ago the likes of ABC were crowing about the end of coal. Morrison was derided for bringing coal into parliament. Well.. coal continues to underwrite the Australian economy.. along with LNG, and will do for decades due to the amount of new coal plants operating worldwide. As for our transfer to renewables.. it is going to make no difference whatsoever to the climate, and will reduce our ability to compete as an industrialised country.

[rev]

83% of new electricity generation on the planet last year was renewables.

https://electrek.co/2023/03/21/the-worl ... s-in-2022/

electricity-production-by-source.png

I was talking about NEW electricity production so you post a map about existing electricity production.....

Yes, and if you look a little closer you'll see a sharp uptick in coal.
Despite some periods of decline you'll see that since the mid 1980s its continued to increase overall, and continues to increase even if renewables have seen large growth overall.

[rev]

To add to this observation, the graph is nearly 2 years old? Since russian gas is now verboten in Europe, coal and gas would show a sharp rise in use since 2022. The likes of Germany, and the uk are reinstating coal. There is a standoff in Germany as they are now trying to move a village to access more brown coal, and they have managed to build a new gas import facility for LNG in 12 months. That’s a lot of investment for so called stranded assets, in a country renowned for being world leaders in renewables.

I'm not sure how the situation in Europe is relevant to Australia. Germany abandoned coal because gas from Russia was cheaper. It now can't get the cheaper gas, so it is reopening mothballed coal plants...which are more expensive to operate.

How is that relevant to Australia? Are you proposing that instead of demolishing coal plants at the end of their life, we should mothball them in case we need them for some reason?

Further, those German coal plants aren't stranded assets. Putting plant into mothballs as a reserve against the exact scenario being played out in Europe doesn't qualify as such.

Nothing in that graph, or for subsequent years, changes the fact that coal plants being built are mostly only happening because of government guarantees. That is, add the cost of extra taxes to the price of power coming from these plants to get the real cost of coal power.

Coal plants are being built or re opened world wide because renewables have been proven in large industrial economies to be not up to the task. Germany was relying on Russian gas, because despite decades of massive investment in renewables.. they are inadequate. How does this relate to Australia? Well significant forces in Australian politics ie greens and teals want all new coal mines banned. As little as 2 years ago the likes of ABC were crowing about the end of coal. Morrison was derided for bringing coal into parliament. Well.. coal continues to underwrite the Australian economy.. along with LNG, and will do for decades due to the amount of new coal plants operating worldwide. As for our transfer to renewables.. it is going to make no difference whatsoever to the climate, and will reduce our ability to compete as an industrialised country.

[SBD]

The chart shows the actual amount of electricity generated from each fuel. It tells us very little about the new generators being commissioned, which was the original assertion. We would expect coal-fueled generation to increase if there are coal power stations being unwrapped from mothballs, especially if others that were due to be retired are being stretched further to meet a temporary disruption.

If we could be bothered, we could probably calculate the generation capacity from each fuel in Australia over the last 20 years by counting up the capacity of each generator and when it was active. I can't be bothered, it is clear that coal-fueled electricity generation in Australia will be a thing of the past by 2040, the same as (direct) coal-fueled transport is now extinct.

[rev]

The chart shows the actual amount of electricity generated from each fuel. It tells us very little about the new generators being commissioned, which was the original assertion. We would expect coal-fueled generation to increase if there are coal power stations being unwrapped from mothballs, especially if others that were due to be retired are being stretched further to meet a temporary disruption.

If we could be bothered, we could probably calculate the generation capacity from each fuel in Australia over the last 20 years by counting up the capacity of each generator and when it was active. I can't be bothered, it is clear that coal-fueled electricity generation in Australia will be a thing of the past by 2040, the same as (direct) coal-fueled transport is now extinct.

For there to be an uptick in coal use, or a steady and continual growth in coal use since the mid 1980's, that means that there are either new coal fired power plants being built, or old ones brought back online, as claybro said.

The drops in coal use have occurred this century, but the sharpest increases have also been this century.

[claybro]

The chart shows the actual amount of electricity generated from each fuel. It tells us very little about the new generators being commissioned, which was the original assertion. We would expect coal-fueled generation to increase if there are coal power stations being unwrapped from mothballs, especially if others that were due to be retired are being stretched further to meet a temporary disruption.

If we could be bothered, we could probably calculate the generation capacity from each fuel in Australia over the last 20 years by counting up the capacity of each generator and when it was active. I can't be bothered, it is clear that coal-fueled electricity generation in Australia will be a thing of the past by 2040, the same as (direct) coal-fueled transport is now extinct.

For there to be an uptick in coal use, or a steady and continual growth in coal use since the mid 1980's, that means that there are either new coal fired power plants being built, or old ones brought back online, as claybro said.

The drops in coal use have occurred this century, but the sharpest increases have also been this century.

It would be interesting to see this graph as it stands today. The sharp drop in coal, coincides with covid lockdowns worldwide, while industry in China and India suffered major closures. Since then, as economies have re opened it has shot up again. As fast as renewables are added worldwide, so also coal and gas increases as the world electrifies more. If we are to all go to electric homes, transport and manufacturing, this will only increase. It would appear many decades off if ever we are to be “net zero” unless we shut down our economy, and even then, the world would barely notice so long as we don’t stop exporting coal, gas and iron ore.

[rev]

The chart shows the actual amount of electricity generated from each fuel. It tells us very little about the new generators being commissioned, which was the original assertion. We would expect coal-fueled generation to increase if there are coal power stations being unwrapped from mothballs, especially if others that were due to be retired are being stretched further to meet a temporary disruption.

If we could be bothered, we could probably calculate the generation capacity from each fuel in Australia over the last 20 years by counting up the capacity of each generator and when it was active. I can't be bothered, it is clear that coal-fueled electricity generation in Australia will be a thing of the past by 2040, the same as (direct) coal-fueled transport is now extinct.

For there to be an uptick in coal use, or a steady and continual growth in coal use since the mid 1980's, that means that there are either new coal fired power plants being built, or old ones brought back online, as claybro said.

The drops in coal use have occurred this century, but the sharpest increases have also been this century.

It would be interesting to see this graph as it stands today. The sharp drop in coal, coincides with covid lockdowns worldwide, while industry in China and India suffered major closures. Since then, as economies have re opened it has shot up again. As fast as renewables are added worldwide, so also coal and gas increases as the world electrifies more. If we are to all go to electric homes, transport and manufacturing, this will only increase. It would appear many decades off if ever we are to be “net zero” unless we shut down our economy, and even then, the world would barely notice so long as we don’t stop exporting coal, gas and iron ore.

Could be wrong but I don't think its covid related. The last drop off was 2018-2020 on that graph, the following uptick is 2020-2021 and puts it higher then it previously was which was in 2018.
Even when it dropped, it didn't drop below 2015 levels.

Solar is at about 1000 TWh, wind just under 2000. Let's say 3,000 TWh combined, for the two most invested in renewables. And they're still not close to what coal was in 1985.
Hydro dropped off for the first time since the year 2000.
Nuclear is as high as it's ever been since 1985.

The graph shows at least 18-19,000 TWh generated from fossil fuels, and increasing as opposed to probably around 8,000 TWh of renewables, with one renewable source (hydro) seeing a decrease at the start of this decade.

I wonder how many major ship yard facilities around the world that build submarines and surface vessels, are powered by renewables.

[PeFe]

I wonder how many major ship yard facilities around the world that build submarines and surface vessels, are powered by renewables.

Well what do you think powers the Whyalla steelworks, the Port Pirie lead smelter and the Olympic Dam copper/uranium mine when SA is producing 100% renewable power during the day (and sometimes late at night)?

Both political parties in SA support 100% renewables by 2030 so yes the submarine construction will be renewable powered (Another possible ironic paradox like the Kentucky Coal Museum....powered by solar panels)

Way too much navel gazing about coal's share of world power in 2015...nuclear share in 2010...etc etc. Who cares? It makes no difference to South Australia what the rest of the world was building 30 years ago.....what matters is what we're doing now.

[rubberman]

For there to be an uptick in coal use, or a steady and continual growth in coal use since the mid 1980's, that means that there are either new coal fired power plants being built, or old ones brought back online, as claybro said.

The drops in coal use have occurred this century, but the sharpest increases have also been this century.

It would be interesting to see this graph as it stands today. The sharp drop in coal, coincides with covid lockdowns worldwide, while industry in China and India suffered major closures. Since then, as economies have re opened it has shot up again. As fast as renewables are added worldwide, so also coal and gas increases as the world electrifies more. If we are to all go to electric homes, transport and manufacturing, this will only increase. It would appear many decades off if ever we are to be “net zero” unless we shut down our economy, and even then, the world would barely notice so long as we don’t stop exporting coal, gas and iron ore.

Could be wrong but I don't think its covid related. The last drop off was 2018-2020 on that graph, the following uptick is 2020-2021 and puts it higher then it previously was which was in 2018.
Even when it dropped, it didn't drop below 2015 levels.

Solar is at about 1000 TWh, wind just under 2000. Let's say 3,000 TWh combined, for the two most invested in renewables. And they're still not close to what coal was in 1985.
Hydro dropped off for the first time since the year 2000.
Nuclear is as high as it's ever been since 1985.

The graph shows at least 18-19,000 TWh generated from fossil fuels, and increasing as opposed to probably around 8,000 TWh of renewables, with one renewable source (hydro) seeing a decrease at the start of this decade.

I wonder how many major ship yard facilities around the world that build submarines and surface vessels, are powered by renewables.

By the way, check out what using coal has done to electricity prices in Germany...think 25% increase.

Now note, that's just taking plants out of mothballs.

How much more would new plants cost over and above that 25%? Double? Triple?

Those whinging about supposed renewables costs are getting new generators for their increases in prices. If we had to pay the costs of new coal plants, the screams of pain would be huge.