News & Discussion: Trams

[A-Town]

so to point 2. If motorists stop using O'Connel street due to trams and preceived extra congestion, it will then revert to a local high street, serving a more urbanised denser population, with links to the CBD via good public transport, and minus some of the through traffic that use it now. A very European boulevard befitting North Adelaide.

Exactly. O'Connell St is easily wide enough to accommodate two dedicated tram-only lines. Prospect Rd isn't, so if it ever were to extend up there they would need to look at sharing the tramline with vehicles, like Jetty Rd Glenelg or like they do in Melbourne.

[PeFe]

Public transport in Adelaide is shit. Most people don't want to use it. It is not convenient in the slightest unless you live near a train station or tram stop. And the majority do not.

Totally unfair comment....where else in the new world (USA/Canada/Australia/New Zealand) can you find a city of 1.4 million people with 6 heavy rail lines, 2 trams/light rail lines and a BRT system anywhere near the range of the 0-Bahn?

And don't even mention cities in Europe or Asia where the population density is much much higher.....

There is nothing wrong with buses as public transport. They are totally appropriate for a city like Adelaide which sprawls over 80 kilometres and has a population density that puts it at the bottom of the table for cities that have more than one million people in their metro area.

Yes heavy rail and trams are great but they are a legacy from a bygone era when Adelaidians didn't have a car and relied totally on public transport.
Having said that yes the trains and trams are under utillised....especially the trains.

And yes I agree with extending the tram to O'Connell Street but that's as far as it should go. Prospect Road is too narrow and the density does not justify anything except buses.

[Jaymz]

Public transport in Adelaide is shit. Most people don't want to use it. It is not convenient in the slightest unless you live near a train station or tram stop. And the majority do not.

Totally unfair comment....where else in the new world (USA/Canada/Australia/New Zealand) can you find a city of 1.4 million people with 6 heavy rail lines, 2 trams/light rail lines and a BRT system anywhere near the range of the 0-Bahn?

And don't even mention cities in Europe or Asia where the population density is much much higher.....

There is nothing wrong with buses as public transport. They are totally appropriate for a city like Adelaide which sprawls over 80 kilometres and has a population density that puts it at the bottom of the table for cities that have more than one million people in their metro area.

Yes heavy rail and trams are great but they are a legacy from a bygone era when Adelaidians didn't have a car and relied totally on public transport.
Having said that yes the trains and trams are under utillised....especially the trains.

And yes I agree with extending the tram to O'Connell Street but that's as far as it should go. Prospect Road is too narrow and the density does not justify anything except buses.

I'm a bit of a dreamer and also rarely use public transport, but I believe if Govts really want public transport to be utilised properly, then it should be FREE for everyone 24/7, 365 days a year. Makes me wonder how much revenue is reliant on fuel excise??

[JAKJ]

Wild idea, but what would people think of a compromise where we can have dual tram lanes on O'Connell Street, that yes, would reduce it to one lane in each direction for traffic - but if LeFevre Terrace was duplicated and Main North Road redirected into LeFevre Terrace and then the road realigned to feed into King William Street through Brougham Gardens?

I get that the Parklands lobby will whinge about loss of Parklands, but it seems to me like a practical solution to managing both a potential tramline but also maintaining 2 lanes of traffic into KWS?

Solid. Works for me.

Lol Brougham place/ Lefevre will never be duplicated.

[JAKJ]

Tram down O'Connell may have been done already if not for the KWR bridge, the ultimate can kicked down the road that ACC, State and Fed can't agree on who should pay what. It needs to be repaired/ rebuilt before you can send a tram over it. I remember quotes form about 10 or so years ago were around $60m so let's say $100-150m now.

[ChillyPhilly]

Tram down O'Connell may have been done already if not for the KWR bridge, the ultimate can kicked down the road that ACC, State and Fed can't agree on who should pay what. It needs to be repaired/ rebuilt before you can send a tram over it. I remember quotes form about 10 or so years ago were around $60m so let's say $100-150m now.

That engineering report looked at reinforcing the bridge for heavy rail, rather than light rail.

[rev]

We actually could have a decent ring route around the city, an inner ring route and outer ring route too.
The problem in Adelaide, is Adelaideans them selves.

Everybody wants the best, but nobody is willing to accept that THEY may need to be inconvenienced for the greater good of our city.
Just look at the property acquisitions for the north south corridor, suddenly many residents are property valuation experts when they see the government's at market offer.

South Road/NSM passed within throwing distance of the CBD anyway.
It could form part of an outer ring route, connected to the CBD and a proper inner ring route. Not just the ring route we have here that's just a bunch of signs saying so.

Public transport in Adelaide is shit. Most people don't want to use it. It is not convenient in the slightest unless you live near a train station or tram stop. And the majority do not.

I have heard hundred times more arguments from Adelaideans against trams than I ever have about building a new ring road and yet this would help solving the underlying problem of too many cars whereas a new ring road would just kick that can a bit further down that ring road.

Public sentiment was overwhelming against the MATS plan because it would ultimately have increased the drivability of Adelaide at the expense of livability. Nothing's changed on that front because still 50 years later no one wants to live near a big road. Building these inner and outer ring roads plus whatever feeder roads would be required in from the suburbs would mean that half the population metropolitan area would live near a big road. Yes it would be easier to drive around Adelaide but actually living in Adelaide would become an order of magnitude shitter for a huge number of people and they would, quite rightly, moan about it. It would look shitter, it would sound shitter and the air quality would be shitter. Then in 30 years time the same problems would come back to haunt us and it would be shitter to drive (or be driven by futuristic robots) again.

There are better ways (in my opinion).

Which highlights my point about the locals.
Everyone complains about traffic getting worse, about poor roads, poor public transport, but when proposals are made to improve these things the same people complain about the proposals.

[rev]

Public transport in Adelaide is shit. Most people don't want to use it. It is not convenient in the slightest unless you live near a train station or tram stop. And the majority do not.

Totally unfair comment....where else in the new world (USA/Canada/Australia/New Zealand) can you find a city of 1.4 million people with 6 heavy rail lines, 2 trams/light rail lines and a BRT system anywhere near the range of the 0-Bahn?

And don't even mention cities in Europe or Asia where the population density is much much higher.....

There is nothing wrong with buses as public transport. They are totally appropriate for a city like Adelaide which sprawls over 80 kilometres and has a population density that puts it at the bottom of the table for cities that have more than one million people in their metro area.

Yes heavy rail and trams are great but they are a legacy from a bygone era when Adelaidians didn't have a car and relied totally on public transport.
Having said that yes the trains and trams are under utillised....especially the trains.

And yes I agree with extending the tram to O'Connell Street but that's as far as it should go. Prospect Road is too narrow and the density does not justify anything except buses.

Those 6 rail lines, 2 tram lines, and o bahn, how many people are actually not within a reasonable distance to actually make use of those forms of public transport?
How inconvenient is it for the majority to use these forms of public transport?

That's where the measure should be, not on how many we have.

[claybro]

Those 6 rail lines, 2 tram lines, and o bahn, how many people are actually not within a reasonable distance to actually make use of those forms of public transport?
How inconvenient is it for the majority to use these forms of public transport?

That's where the measure should be, not on how many we have.

Agree- furthermore..all development (except maybe TTP and Noarlunga) in recent decades is not within easy walking distance of train stations let alone directly adjacent on those lines- so we do not even make good use of the lines that are there. Trams would go some way to address that.

[PeFe]

How inconvenient is it for the majority to use these forms of public transport?

What do you mean? What are "convenient" forms of public transport?

Its not the train lines fault that the majority of Mawson Lakes was built one kilometre from the train station instead of around the train station !

Public transport is there to provide a transport service for the most people to a maximum number of destinations within a proscribed budget. 400-500 metres to the nearest transport service is a given paremeter in the new world regarding transport service ie that should be the maximum distance to the bus train tram or bus.
Yes you have to walk.....even in great transport cities in the world like London Paris and New York you have to walk, and you might have to change train, or change mode from train to bus or bus to bus or metro to bus....thats the reality.

If you want totally convenient service from Point A to Point B then hire a taxi or Uber.

[whatstheirnamesmom]

Problem is, the reason O'Connell Street is so congested, is that are still way too many private vehicles using it, and KWS for that matter. It should not be a cars v tram thing, many of the cars should not be there in the first place. They should be doing more to find out why the cars are there, and then how to get motorists to use workable alternative routes.

Exactly. It is acting too much like a road, carrying large volumes of cars passing through, and not enough like a street, a place for people. If we want a liveable North Adelaide, the use of the public roadway needs to change. 90% of the problem holding O'Connell Street back is the amount of cars. The noise, pollution, unwalkability, the lack of good public and active transport links -- all can be addressed with fewer cars.

CoA have done a basic model of where they predict motor traffic would go, much of the bulk diverting to Jeffcott or Lefevre. They also note the model doesn't account for mode shift – so I expect more people will take the bus and train, and I would expect an increase in demand in the inner northern suburbs for better public transport links.

[Nathan]

If you were to divert traffic that way, would it be better to get rid of Medindie Rd and the section of Main North Rd through the parklands altogether, and re-route Le Fevere Tce directly to the Main North Rd / Robe Tce intersection? Would return a chunk to parklands (to offset any widening that would need to be done to the existing part of Le Fevere Tce).

[rev]

How inconvenient is it for the majority to use these forms of public transport?

What do you mean? What are "convenient" forms of public transport?

Its not the train lines fault that the majority of Mawson Lakes was built one kilometre from the train station instead of around the train station !

Public transport is there to provide a transport service for the most people to a maximum number of destinations within a proscribed budget. 400-500 metres to the nearest transport service is a given paremeter in the new world regarding transport service ie that should be the maximum distance to the bus train tram or bus.
Yes you have to walk.....even in great transport cities in the world like London Paris and New York you have to walk, and you might have to change train, or change mode from train to bus or bus to bus or metro to bus....thats the reality.

If you want totally convenient service from Point A to Point B then hire a taxi or Uber.

There's a huge swathe of suburbs in every direction that those tram and train lines, and obahn, are too far away from. Where there is nothing, other then maybe some bus routes, that there's literally no point using because they take longer then using your own car.

Look at Melbourne. Doesn't matter that it's a larger city population wise. Look at their inner suburbs, and how many tram and train lines service them.
Lets take the areas from the Melbourne CBD out to Box Hill and down to Hampton, and the CBD to Heidleburg and out to Essendon.
We ripped out our tram network.

Then here we are in Adelaide, building new suburbs on the outskirts, without any public transport let alone provisions for it, but some people expect more people to ditch their cars and hop on non-existent trains, trams and unreliable/late buses that contend with traffic and other delays on the roads.

[whatstheirnamesmom]

If you were to divert traffic that way, would it be better to get rid of Medindie Rd and the section of Main North Rd through the parklands altogether, and re-route Le Fevere Tce directly to the Main North Rd / Robe Tce intersection? Would return a chunk to parklands (to offset any widening that would need to be done to the existing part of Le Fevere Tce).

Back to how it was in 1935

Also, note the three trams heading to/from O'Connell.



I don't think a widening of any more roads is necessary to be honest. The idea is to encourage mode shift, not support the status quo.

[Nathan]

If you were to divert traffic that way, would it be better to get rid of Medindie Rd and the section of Main North Rd through the parklands altogether, and re-route Le Fevere Tce directly to the Main North Rd / Robe Tce intersection? Would return a chunk to parklands (to offset any widening that would need to be done to the existing part of Le Fevere Tce).

Back to how it was in 1935

Also, note the three trams heading to/from O'Connell.

I don't think a widening of any more roads is necessary to be honest. The idea is to encourage mode shift, not support the status quo.

Perfect! Now just delete the diagonal roads.
I don't like road widening either, but the reality would be that if you funnel Main North Rd traffic onto Le Fevere Tce, it would have to be widened to two lanes each way. It probably wouldn't have to be widened by much though, if all the on-street parking is removed. Mode shift is the ideal, but shifting that traffic away from O'Connell St would be the short term goal.