News & Discussion: O-Bahn

[Nort]

The O-Bahn is a quick route for buses to take, electrifying it seems to add an extra level of complication without really solving any problems.

Do you think electrifying the Seaford line added an extra level of complication without really solving any problems? If not, what’s the difference?

Electrifying the O-Bahn gets rid of emissions from buses, reduces operating costs, and improves performance (particularly on uphill sections). But perhaps more importantly, it will make the buses themselves cheaper! This is because the batteries make up a high proportion of the cost of an electric bus. By enabling the buses to charge up on the move, electrifying the O-Bahn would greatly reduce battery capacity requirements.

Difference is that trains running on that line spend all their time running on the electrical infrastructure. Buses using the O-Bahn only spend a short amount of time on it as part of their overall routes, and need to be able to operate as normal buses entirely.

If we had a fully electrified fleet, there could maybe be a small amount of savings to be made by allowing those vehicles to recharge a little on the O-Bahn, but I suspect the extra complexity and infrastructure would outweigh any benefits.

[rubberman]

The O-Bahn is a quick route for buses to take, electrifying it seems to add an extra level of complication without really solving any problems.

Do you think electrifying the Seaford line added an extra level of complication without really solving any problems? If not, what’s the difference?

Electrifying the O-Bahn gets rid of emissions from buses, reduces operating costs, and improves performance (particularly on uphill sections). But perhaps more importantly, it will make the buses themselves cheaper! This is because the batteries make up a high proportion of the cost of an electric bus. By enabling the buses to charge up on the move, electrifying the O-Bahn would greatly reduce battery capacity requirements.

Difference is that trains running on that line spend all their time running on the electrical infrastructure. Buses using the O-Bahn only spend a short amount of time on it as part of their overall routes, and need to be able to operate as normal buses entirely.

If we had a fully electrified fleet, there could maybe be a small amount of savings to be made by allowing those vehicles to recharge a little on the O-Bahn, but I suspect the extra complexity and infrastructure would outweigh any benefits.

The O-Bahn would be perfect for electrification. Use of electric buses with combined battery and overhead operation is well proven. Since public transport peaks are during daylight hours, it's also very suitable as a load for renewables like solar. The overhead is also not limited to the O-Bahn track. It could also be applied to parts of the routes on the other side of the city if needed.

[Spotto]

Instead of installing electrification on the current O-Bahn tracks, would some kind of fast charging at the interchanges be a more cost effective solution?

Certainly when the time comes to do a more extensive renewal of the tracks it would make sense to look at our options, but until then could fast charging be the answer?

[abc]

Instead of installing electrification on the current O-Bahn tracks, would some kind of fast charging at the interchanges be a more cost effective solution?

Certainly when the time comes to do a more extensive renewal of the tracks it would make sense to look at our options, but until then could fast charging be the answer?

what is this 'fast charging' you speak of?

[rubberman]

Instead of installing electrification on the current O-Bahn tracks, would some kind of fast charging at the interchanges be a more cost effective solution?

Certainly when the time comes to do a more extensive renewal of the tracks it would make sense to look at our options, but until then could fast charging be the answer?

what is this 'fast charging' you speak of?

Charging stations are installed at termini. They work if the service frequency is low enough to accommodate 15-20min charging times. They don't work for busy services.

[rev]

If you're going to electrify the obahn and have electric buses running on it, wouldn't it make sense to either have overhead wires, or a 'powered' rail down the centre at 'ground' level like some tram systems have to power them?
I'm sure with some government funding as an incentive, the firm that builds the buses here in Adelaide could develop a charging system. Perhaps even have it adaptable to be deployed across the road network in appropriate sections? Could be a potential export windfall considering the world is moving away from combustion engines.

[rubberman]

If you're going to electrify the obahn and have electric buses running on it, wouldn't it make sense to either have overhead wires, or a 'powered' rail down the centre at 'ground' level like some tram systems have to power them?
I'm sure with some government funding as an incentive, the firm that builds the buses here in Adelaide could develop a charging system. Perhaps even have it adaptable to be deployed across the road network in appropriate sections? Could be a potential export windfall considering the world is moving away from combustion engines.

Overhead wire systems are reliable and able to be used by anyone. There are systems for street level charging, but they are proprietary...and as Sydney is finding out, subject to lots of breakdowns. Plus, of course, if you install a proprietary system, then you are tied into that somewhat for upgrades and replacements. People have been trying for over 100 years to develop a reliable and safe road level charging system for transport. Often the problem is that the charging system remains "live" after the vehicle passes, making it unsafe. Otoh, if it is made safe enough for that not to happen, it tends to fail in the other direction, and vehicles get stuck on dead sections. At which point, they are advised to get bigger batteries. That begs the question of why bother with road level charging?

[Aidan]

If you're going to electrify the obahn and have electric buses running on it, wouldn't it make sense to either have overhead wires, or a 'powered' rail down the centre at 'ground' level like some tram systems have to power them?

Unlike trams, which are earthed through the rails, buses need two overhead wires to complete the circuit. Cost and safety considerations make street level electrification impractical, though many have tried. Torrential rain falls here often enough to rule out all such systems except induction based ones (which are less efficient and even costlier).

But the O-Bahn is different: it would be relatively easy to install two powered rails down the middle (or even one in the middle and one at the edge). The buses can get enough power for traction and recharging their batteries while carrying passengers at 100km/h instead of having to waste time and space recharging while stationary.

[rubberman]

If you're going to electrify the obahn and have electric buses running on it, wouldn't it make sense to either have overhead wires, or a 'powered' rail down the centre at 'ground' level like some tram systems have to power them?

Unlike trams, which are earthed through the rails, buses need two overhead wires to complete the circuit. Cost and safety considerations make street level electrification impractical, though many have tried. Torrential rain falls here often enough to rule out all such systems except induction based ones (which are less efficient and even costlier).

But the O-Bahn is different: it would be relatively easy to install two powered rails down the middle (or even one in the middle and one at the edge). The buses can get enough power for traction and recharging their batteries while carrying passengers at 100km/h instead of having to waste time and space recharging while stationary.

That's true for the O-Bahn track. However, if buses are to be used for a significant distance past the O-Bahn track, say on the J1 and J2, then you need to be able to support that range. Trolleybus overhead is already proven and cheap.

https://www.facebook.com/udalostibrno/v ... 7S9Ucbxw6v

[Nort]

Do you think electrifying the Seaford line added an extra level of complication without really solving any problems? If not, what’s the difference?

Electrifying the O-Bahn gets rid of emissions from buses, reduces operating costs, and improves performance (particularly on uphill sections). But perhaps more importantly, it will make the buses themselves cheaper! This is because the batteries make up a high proportion of the cost of an electric bus. By enabling the buses to charge up on the move, electrifying the O-Bahn would greatly reduce battery capacity requirements.

Difference is that trains running on that line spend all their time running on the electrical infrastructure. Buses using the O-Bahn only spend a short amount of time on it as part of their overall routes, and need to be able to operate as normal buses entirely.

If we had a fully electrified fleet, there could maybe be a small amount of savings to be made by allowing those vehicles to recharge a little on the O-Bahn, but I suspect the extra complexity and infrastructure would outweigh any benefits.

The O-Bahn would be perfect for electrification. Use of electric buses with combined battery and overhead operation is well proven. Since public transport peaks are during daylight hours, it's also very suitable as a load for renewables like solar. The overhead is also not limited to the O-Bahn track. It could also be applied to parts of the routes on the other side of the city if needed.

Sure, but it still hasn't been defined what problem is being solved by electrifying it:

Scenario: Buses need to be able to operate most of their route on roads without that infrastructure.

Buses that run on the O-Bahn also need to be able to bypass it in the cases of breakdowns or track maintenance.

Both those things mean that the buses would need to be able to operate without the recharge from running on it. In which case what problem is the electrification solving or how does it benefit either cost, time, or the passenger experience?

[rubberman]

Difference is that trains running on that line spend all their time running on the electrical infrastructure. Buses using the O-Bahn only spend a short amount of time on it as part of their overall routes, and need to be able to operate as normal buses entirely.

If we had a fully electrified fleet, there could maybe be a small amount of savings to be made by allowing those vehicles to recharge a little on the O-Bahn, but I suspect the extra complexity and infrastructure would outweigh any benefits.

The O-Bahn would be perfect for electrification. Use of electric buses with combined battery and overhead operation is well proven. Since public transport peaks are during daylight hours, it's also very suitable as a load for renewables like solar. The overhead is also not limited to the O-Bahn track. It could also be applied to parts of the routes on the other side of the city if needed.

Sure, but it still hasn't been defined what problem is being solved by electrifying it:

Scenario: Buses need to be able to operate most of their route on roads without that infrastructure.

Buses that run on the O-Bahn also need to be able to bypass it in the cases of breakdowns or track maintenance.

Both those things mean that the buses would need to be able to operate without the recharge from running on it. In which case what problem is the electrification solving or how does it benefit either cost, time, or the passenger experience?

The problem being addressed is that fossil fuels are being phased out. So, what are we going to replace diesel engines with?

Hybrid battery and trolleybuses can bypass sections without overhead wires if required. This is pretty much bog standard proven technology.

[abc]

The O-Bahn would be perfect for electrification. Use of electric buses with combined battery and overhead operation is well proven. Since public transport peaks are during daylight hours, it's also very suitable as a load for renewables like solar. The overhead is also not limited to the O-Bahn track. It could also be applied to parts of the routes on the other side of the city if needed.

Sure, but it still hasn't been defined what problem is being solved by electrifying it:

Scenario: Buses need to be able to operate most of their route on roads without that infrastructure.

Buses that run on the O-Bahn also need to be able to bypass it in the cases of breakdowns or track maintenance.

Both those things mean that the buses would need to be able to operate without the recharge from running on it. In which case what problem is the electrification solving or how does it benefit either cost, time, or the passenger experience?

The problem being addressed is that fossil fuels are being phased out. So, what are we going to replace diesel engines with?

Hybrid battery and trolleybuses can bypass sections without overhead wires if required. This is pretty much bog standard proven technology.

they're only being phased out in this country because our politicians are so stupid they want to send us back to the dark ages

[rubberman]

Sure, but it still hasn't been defined what problem is being solved by electrifying it:

Scenario: Buses need to be able to operate most of their route on roads without that infrastructure.

Buses that run on the O-Bahn also need to be able to bypass it in the cases of breakdowns or track maintenance.

Both those things mean that the buses would need to be able to operate without the recharge from running on it. In which case what problem is the electrification solving or how does it benefit either cost, time, or the passenger experience?

The problem being addressed is that fossil fuels are being phased out. So, what are we going to replace diesel engines with?

Hybrid battery and trolleybuses can bypass sections without overhead wires if required. This is pretty much bog standard proven technology.

they're only being phased out in this country because our politicians are so stupid they want to send us back to the dark ages

Well, that's a matter of opinion. However, solar panels actually work. They do produce cheap power...ask anyone with rooftop solar. Most public transport power is consumed during daylight hours, so it seems pretty open and shut that solar would work well for trolleybuses and battery hybrids.

[Spotto]

The problem being addressed is that fossil fuels are being phased out. So, what are we going to replace diesel engines with?

Hybrid battery and trolleybuses can bypass sections without overhead wires if required. This is pretty much bog standard proven technology.

they're only being phased out in this country because our politicians are so stupid they want to send us back to the dark ages

It's stupid to transition away from a finite energy resource?

Granted, one stupid decision that some of them are making (in SA at least) is shutting down fossil fueled plants before we have enough renewable capacity to replace it. But SA is slowly bridging that gap.

[abc]

The problem being addressed is that fossil fuels are being phased out. So, what are we going to replace diesel engines with?

Hybrid battery and trolleybuses can bypass sections without overhead wires if required. This is pretty much bog standard proven technology.

they're only being phased out in this country because our politicians are so stupid they want to send us back to the dark ages

It's stupid to transition away from a finite energy resource?

Granted, one stupid decision that some of them are making (in SA at least) is shutting down fossil fueled plants before we have enough renewable capacity to replace it. But SA is slowly bridging that gap.

we have 500 years of coal reserves and we're sending it all abroad to places like China who are developing their economy while ours is going down the toilet

the only renewable that's reliable is hydro and that's not an option here...solar and wind are both heavily subsidised, unreliable and ruin the environment in different ways

we should be transitioning to nuclear like some European countries who've finally realised 'renewables' are futile since they had their gas supply cut off by American divers