News & Discussion: O-Bahn

[rev]

Well, that's a matter of opinion. However, solar panels actually work. They do produce cheap power...ask anyone with rooftop solar. Most public transport power is consumed during daylight hours, so it seems pretty open and shut that solar would work well for trolleybuses and battery hybrids.

If they can get it right with a fleet of electric buses, I think it will go a long way to convincing many people that the technology is viable and can work well and replace combustion engines particularly in Australia. Buses get flogged mileage wise.

[Spotto]

they're only being phased out in this country because our politicians are so stupid they want to send us back to the dark ages

It's stupid to transition away from a finite energy resource?

Granted, one stupid decision that some of them are making (in SA at least) is shutting down fossil fueled plants before we have enough renewable capacity to replace it. But SA is slowly bridging that gap.

we have 500 years of coal reserves and we're sending it all abroad to places like China who are developing their economy while ours is going down the toilet

the only renewable that's reliable is hydro and that's not an option here...solar and wind are both heavily subsidised, unreliable and ruin the environment in different ways

we should be transitioning to nuclear like some European countries who've finally realised 'renewables' are futile since they had their gas supply cut off by American divers

The fossil fuel industry is also heavily subsidised by fuel tax credits, receiving $10.3bn in 2020-21 and $11.6bn in 2021-22.

[abc]

It's stupid to transition away from a finite energy resource?

Granted, one stupid decision that some of them are making (in SA at least) is shutting down fossil fueled plants before we have enough renewable capacity to replace it. But SA is slowly bridging that gap.

we have 500 years of coal reserves and we're sending it all abroad to places like China who are developing their economy while ours is going down the toilet

the only renewable that's reliable is hydro and that's not an option here...solar and wind are both heavily subsidised, unreliable and ruin the environment in different ways

we should be transitioning to nuclear like some European countries who've finally realised 'renewables' are futile since they had their gas supply cut off by American divers

The fossil fuel industry is also heavily subsidised by fuel tax credits, receiving $10.3bn in 2020-21 and $11.6bn in 2021-22.

did you get this factoid from the Greens website?
fossil fuels have driven the industrial revolution and modernisation of our world...it would be literally impossible without economic sustainability

[Spotto]

we have 500 years of coal reserves and we're sending it all abroad to places like China who are developing their economy while ours is going down the toilet

the only renewable that's reliable is hydro and that's not an option here...solar and wind are both heavily subsidised, unreliable and ruin the environment in different ways

we should be transitioning to nuclear like some European countries who've finally realised 'renewables' are futile since they had their gas supply cut off by American divers

The fossil fuel industry is also heavily subsidised by fuel tax credits, receiving $10.3bn in 2020-21 and $11.6bn in 2021-22.

did you get this factoid from the Greens website?
fossil fuels have driven the industrial revolution and modernisation of our world...it would be literally impossible without economic sustainability

From The Australia Institute, actually. And the fuel tax credit isn't a random buzz-word factoid. [https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/ ... n-2021-22/] [https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/ ... n-2020-21/]

I never denied that they drove the Industrial Revolution and are a founding staple of the modern world. But as technology evolves it's only natural for new methods of generating and using power to rise up. Steam was replaced by the combustion engine, the oil lamp was replaced with the electric bulb, the world didn't end then and it won't end now.

[Nathan]

they're only being phased out in this country because our politicians are so stupid they want to send us back to the dark ages

It's stupid to transition away from a finite energy resource?

Granted, one stupid decision that some of them are making (in SA at least) is shutting down fossil fueled plants before we have enough renewable capacity to replace it. But SA is slowly bridging that gap.

we have 500 years of coal reserves and we're sending it all abroad to places like China who are developing their economy while ours is going down the toilet

the only renewable that's reliable is hydro and that's not an option here...solar and wind are both heavily subsidised, unreliable and ruin the environment in different ways

we should be transitioning to nuclear like some European countries who've finally realised 'renewables' are futile since they had their gas supply cut off by American divers

Let me know when we have buses running on coal. In the meantime, even if you (stupidly) see no value in transitioning to renewables, then at least see the benefit in using an energy source we control rather than being reliant on oil imports.

[abc]

It's stupid to transition away from a finite energy resource?

Granted, one stupid decision that some of them are making (in SA at least) is shutting down fossil fueled plants before we have enough renewable capacity to replace it. But SA is slowly bridging that gap.

we have 500 years of coal reserves and we're sending it all abroad to places like China who are developing their economy while ours is going down the toilet

the only renewable that's reliable is hydro and that's not an option here...solar and wind are both heavily subsidised, unreliable and ruin the environment in different ways

we should be transitioning to nuclear like some European countries who've finally realised 'renewables' are futile since they had their gas supply cut off by American divers

Let me know when we have buses running on coal. In the meantime, even if you (stupidly) see no value in transitioning to renewables, then at least see the benefit in using an energy source we control rather than being reliant on oil imports.

trams and trains already run on coal

where do you think the electricity comes from? magical electricity wizards in the sky?

we control coal, but we sell it offshore
we control uranium, but we sell it offshore and use none here

we've made enemies with the major oil and gas producers

our government has been the architect of the downfall of this country's economy and its future

we have the most expensive energy in the world and as a result its not economically viable for any manufacturing industry to exist here
we can't even build a motor car

we're a sitting duck if any kind of blockade or war breaks out in our region

[cocoiadrop]

we have 500 years of coal reserves and we're sending it all abroad to places like China who are developing their economy while ours is going down the toilet

the only renewable that's reliable is hydro and that's not an option here...solar and wind are both heavily subsidised, unreliable and ruin the environment in different ways

we should be transitioning to nuclear like some European countries who've finally realised 'renewables' are futile since they had their gas supply cut off by American divers

Let me know when we have buses running on coal. In the meantime, even if you (stupidly) see no value in transitioning to renewables, then at least see the benefit in using an energy source we control rather than being reliant on oil imports.

trams and trains already run on coal

where do you think the electricity comes from? magical electricity wizards in the sky?

we control coal, but we sell it offshore
we control uranium, but we sell it offshore and use none here

we've made enemies with the major oil and gas producers

our government has been the architect of the downfall of this country's economy and its future

we have the most expensive energy in the world and as a result its not economically viable for any manufacturing industry to exist here
we can't even build a motor car

we're a sitting duck if any kind of blockade or war breaks out in our region

South Australia has not had a coal plant running since 2016 and most of our power is from renewables. Whatever power is coming from interstate wouldn't quality trains "running on coal".

When did you think the off-shore selling and offloading of local manufacturing happened? Certainly hasn't been unique to the government we have now.

Either way, this hardly feels relevant to charging methods for potentially electric O-Bahn buses. Buses are going electric and thats that regardless of anyone's thoughts on coal.

[abc]

Let me know when we have buses running on coal. In the meantime, even if you (stupidly) see no value in transitioning to renewables, then at least see the benefit in using an energy source we control rather than being reliant on oil imports.

trams and trains already run on coal

where do you think the electricity comes from? magical electricity wizards in the sky?

we control coal, but we sell it offshore
we control uranium, but we sell it offshore and use none here

we've made enemies with the major oil and gas producers

our government has been the architect of the downfall of this country's economy and its future

we have the most expensive energy in the world and as a result its not economically viable for any manufacturing industry to exist here
we can't even build a motor car

we're a sitting duck if any kind of blockade or war breaks out in our region

South Australia has not had a coal plant running since 2016 and most of our power is from renewables. Whatever power is coming from interstate wouldn't quality trains "running on coal".

When did you think the off-shore selling and offloading of local manufacturing happened? Certainly hasn't been unique to the government we have now.

Either way, this hardly feels relevant to charging methods for potentially electric O-Bahn buses. Buses are going electric and thats that regardless of anyone's thoughts on coal.

do you realise we're connected to a national electricity grid and we're backfilled by coal & gas powered electricity from interstate?

please don't tell me you think we're energy self sufficient in this state

I'm not talking about the government we have now, its been government policy across both major parties for a decade

[rubberman]

trams and trains already run on coal

where do you think the electricity comes from? magical electricity wizards in the sky?

we control coal, but we sell it offshore
we control uranium, but we sell it offshore and use none here

we've made enemies with the major oil and gas producers

our government has been the architect of the downfall of this country's economy and its future

we have the most expensive energy in the world and as a result its not economically viable for any manufacturing industry to exist here
we can't even build a motor car

we're a sitting duck if any kind of blockade or war breaks out in our region

South Australia has not had a coal plant running since 2016 and most of our power is from renewables. Whatever power is coming from interstate wouldn't quality trains "running on coal".

When did you think the off-shore selling and offloading of local manufacturing happened? Certainly hasn't been unique to the government we have now.

Either way, this hardly feels relevant to charging methods for potentially electric O-Bahn buses. Buses are going electric and thats that regardless of anyone's thoughts on coal.

do you realise we're connected to a national electricity grid and we're backfilled by coal & gas powered electricity from interstate?

please don't tell me you think we're energy self sufficient in this state

I'm not talking about the government we have now, its been government policy across both major parties for a decade

None of this is relevant to the O-Bahn. The decision to not replace the Port Augusta power stations was an economic one made by a private company. Like it or not, no other private companies have stepped up to build a coal fired power station in SA. So, it's renewables or nothing. In that situation, there's a case for using trolleybuses or trolley/battery hybrids on the O-Bahn.

There's actually whole topic devoted to power infrastructure if people want to debate renewables vs fossils vs nuclear.

[rev]

None of this is relevant to the O-Bahn. The decision to not replace the Port Augusta power stations was an economic one made by a private company. Like it or not, no other private companies have stepped up to build a coal fired power station in SA. So, it's renewables or nothing. In that situation, there's a case for using trolleybuses or trolley/battery hybrids on the O-Bahn.

There's actually whole topic devoted to power infrastructure if people want to debate renewables vs fossils vs nuclear.

It's not an economic decision, it's a commercial decision made with the heavy influence of government subsidies for one technology over the other.

There should absolutely be a move, or the option to move away from combustion engines. We saw during COVID the disruption to supply chains and the impacts that had on the economy.
What happens when there's some other global event that disrupts the energy supply chains that we rely on to fuel our vehicles, particularly public transport and emergency services fleets? Government should even incentivise for big corporations involved in our local and national supply chains to become non-reliant on foreign energy supplies to keep their fleets moving.

[rubberman]

None of this is relevant to the O-Bahn. The decision to not replace the Port Augusta power stations was an economic one made by a private company. Like it or not, no other private companies have stepped up to build a coal fired power station in SA. So, it's renewables or nothing. In that situation, there's a case for using trolleybuses or trolley/battery hybrids on the O-Bahn.

There's actually whole topic devoted to power infrastructure if people want to debate renewables vs fossils vs nuclear.

It's not an economic decision, it's a commercial decision made with the heavy influence of government subsidies for one technology over the other.

There should absolutely be a move, or the option to move away from combustion engines. We saw during COVID the disruption to supply chains and the impacts that had on the economy.
What happens when there's some other global event that disrupts the energy supply chains that we rely on to fuel our vehicles, particularly public transport and emergency services fleets? Government should even incentivise for big corporations involved in our local and national supply chains to become non-reliant on foreign energy supplies to keep their fleets moving.

The only figures I can find are saying that the fossil fuel industry is substantially more highly subsidised than renewables.

Whether that's true or not, it'd be a good thing to cut the subsidies and see what the market did in response.

[abc]

None of this is relevant to the O-Bahn. The decision to not replace the Port Augusta power stations was an economic one made by a private company. Like it or not, no other private companies have stepped up to build a coal fired power station in SA. So, it's renewables or nothing. In that situation, there's a case for using trolleybuses or trolley/battery hybrids on the O-Bahn.

There's actually whole topic devoted to power infrastructure if people want to debate renewables vs fossils vs nuclear.

It's not an economic decision, it's a commercial decision made with the heavy influence of government subsidies for one technology over the other.

There should absolutely be a move, or the option to move away from combustion engines. We saw during COVID the disruption to supply chains and the impacts that had on the economy.
What happens when there's some other global event that disrupts the energy supply chains that we rely on to fuel our vehicles, particularly public transport and emergency services fleets? Government should even incentivise for big corporations involved in our local and national supply chains to become non-reliant on foreign energy supplies to keep their fleets moving.

The only figures I can find are saying that the fossil fuel industry is substantially more highly subsidised than renewables.

Whether that's true or not, it'd be a good thing to cut the subsidies and see what the market did in response.

'renewables' would cease to exist overnight

[Aidan]

'Tis simply false to say we're "backfilled from interstate". The reality is we have two electrical connections to Victoria (one limited capacity, the other very limited capacity) and we're a net exporter of electricity. I'll address the issues in more detail in the next few days, along with the rest of the posts here relating to electricity rather than the O-Bahn, in the electricity thread. Meanwhile:

Sure, but it still hasn't been defined what problem is being solved by electrifying it:

Scenario: Buses need to be able to operate most of their route on roads without that infrastructure.

Buses that run on the O-Bahn also need to be able to bypass it in the cases of breakdowns or track maintenance.

Both those things mean that the buses would need to be able to operate without the recharge from running on it. In which case what problem is the electrification solving or how does it benefit either cost, time, or the passenger experience?

Batteries will be used. But lithium batteries are expensive. To hold a full day's charge the batteries would cost more than the rest of the bus!
Therefore smaller batteries make sense. But then they need recharging. Which could mean taking the buses out of service for a while, making them less productive (and where would you put them?)

Charging the buses while they're carrying passengers along the O-Bahn at 100km/h gives the cost savings of a small batteried bus with most of the operational advantages of a large batteried bus.

Track maintenance is usually scheduled for times of low demand. And when it does happen, it doesn't affect the entire length of the track. The only time it's affected me. the bus joined the track at Paradise instead of TTP.
If a breakdown occurs, they can use a recovery vehicle to haul it to the next station. But that's unlikely, as electric vehicles are more reliable than their diesel counterparts.

[rubberman]

It's not an economic decision, it's a commercial decision made with the heavy influence of government subsidies for one technology over the other.

There should absolutely be a move, or the option to move away from combustion engines. We saw during COVID the disruption to supply chains and the impacts that had on the economy.
What happens when there's some other global event that disrupts the energy supply chains that we rely on to fuel our vehicles, particularly public transport and emergency services fleets? Government should even incentivise for big corporations involved in our local and national supply chains to become non-reliant on foreign energy supplies to keep their fleets moving.

The only figures I can find are saying that the fossil fuel industry is substantially more highly subsidised than renewables.

Whether that's true or not, it'd be a good thing to cut the subsidies and see what the market did in response.

'renewables' would cease to exist overnight

Of course you are entitled to an opinion, but since the only figures I can find suggest that fossil fuels receive far higher subsidies, do you have any reason to back up your opinion? The diesel fuel rebate costs more per year than the army.

[rev]

None of this is relevant to the O-Bahn. The decision to not replace the Port Augusta power stations was an economic one made by a private company. Like it or not, no other private companies have stepped up to build a coal fired power station in SA. So, it's renewables or nothing. In that situation, there's a case for using trolleybuses or trolley/battery hybrids on the O-Bahn.

There's actually whole topic devoted to power infrastructure if people want to debate renewables vs fossils vs nuclear.

It's not an economic decision, it's a commercial decision made with the heavy influence of government subsidies for one technology over the other.

There should absolutely be a move, or the option to move away from combustion engines. We saw during COVID the disruption to supply chains and the impacts that had on the economy.
What happens when there's some other global event that disrupts the energy supply chains that we rely on to fuel our vehicles, particularly public transport and emergency services fleets? Government should even incentivise for big corporations involved in our local and national supply chains to become non-reliant on foreign energy supplies to keep their fleets moving.

The only figures I can find are saying that the fossil fuel industry is substantially more highly subsidised than renewables.

Whether that's true or not, it'd be a good thing to cut the subsidies and see what the market did in response.

https://www.globalaustralia.gov.au/news ... 0by%202050.

https://www.climatecouncil.org.au/resou ... ryEALw_wcB

$25 billion for renewables.
$11.5 billion for fossil fuels.

There's a lot of click-bait and misrepresentation of figures out there by the greenies, who claim figures as much as 5-6 times higher for fossil fuels, but those figures aren't direct subsidies, they are according to the IMF the cost to Australia which our government fails to recoup for the associated health & environmental costs.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-19/ ... /101071962
But then you have the Greens leader saying $10 billion/year, but his own allies at the ABC fact checking him.
And if you're going to include fuel rebates, then you should include rebates for solar and battery storage for homes.
It's all very subjective isn't it? Some want to include the costs to health care through pollution as a "subsidy" to the fossil fuel industry, but why not include the cost to home owners who in some councils have to achieve a "green" rating for new homes?

The cost of all this shit, with our politicians and their corporate mates playing their games, is always on us the tax payers at the bottom.
We're footing the bill for the burden on the health care system, we're footing the bill for the higher electricity prices as a result of their inaction to properly transition from one source of energy to another, etc etc.

If they actually gave a toss and wanted to make a difference they'd subsidise, heavily, the cost for every house in Australia to get solar panels & batteries installed so all our homes could at least be energy self-sufficient.
Not the current 2-3 grand you get, when in reality a proper setup costs upwards of $15-20,000..
This could also support local industry to manufacture solar panels & batteries and the servicing/repair/maintenance of these systems installed on every Australian home.
Would we then need as many coal/gas power stations or have landscapes blighted with fields of solar panels and wind turbines?

It's 2023, maybe the solution isn't fields of solar panels and wind turbines, but energy self sufficiency for every home and potentially business?
Maybe they could re-direct money into research and development of solar technology that yields higher outputs.

But then, their corporate mates wouldn't make as much money would they.