News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

[mattblack]

these batteries are a great idea

the one in Rockhampton is on fire

https://x.com/MorningGunk/status/170717 ... 42032?s=20

Genex Power, the owner and operator of the Bouldercombe Battery today issued an ASX announcement regarding the fire https://app.sharelinktechnologies.com/a ... baa65f64c6 .

The fire was described as minor, of low intensity and affecting only 1 of the 40 Megapack modules.

can't be put out with water

firefighters had no choice but to allow to burn out

do you still think this is good for the environment?

Give me a break with your diatribe.

Ever heard of a coal seam fire. Burned for 45 days in 2014. Long term affects on residents of the La Trobe Valley. There are hundreds/thousands around the world uncontrolled.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... tudy-finds

Go find some context.

[rev]

Regardless of which option the world goes with, there's environmental impacts.

[abc]

Genex Power, the owner and operator of the Bouldercombe Battery today issued an ASX announcement regarding the fire https://app.sharelinktechnologies.com/a ... baa65f64c6 .

The fire was described as minor, of low intensity and affecting only 1 of the 40 Megapack modules.

can't be put out with water

firefighters had no choice but to allow to burn out

do you still think this is good for the environment?

Give me a break with your diatribe.

Ever heard of a coal seam fire. Burned for 45 days in 2014. Long term affects on residents of the La Trobe Valley. There are hundreds/thousands around the world uncontrolled.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... tudy-finds

Go find some context.

why do you assume I support coal seam gas?

if you want context maybe start with the fact these batteries generate zero electricity

[SBD]

can't be put out with water

firefighters had no choice but to allow to burn out

do you still think this is good for the environment?

Give me a break with your diatribe.

Ever heard of a coal seam fire. Burned for 45 days in 2014. Long term affects on residents of the La Trobe Valley. There are hundreds/thousands around the world uncontrolled.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... tudy-finds

Go find some context.

why do you assume I support coal seam gas?

if you want context maybe start with the fact these batteries generate zero electricity

Correct - they don't generate electricity. They store it from times with excess generation to be released at times of excess demand. They also provide various kinds of technical modulation that had traditionally been provided by heavy flywheels. It seems like in a few years time, just about every major substation in the network will have a battery farm next to it. I assume this will improve resilience to adverse events that remove long transmission lines at random such as the big storm a few years ago. I think the batteries have just about taken over the need for the synchronous condensers that were only installed a few years ago to compensate for the loss of spinning "baseload" (always on) generators.

[rev]

Give me a break with your diatribe.

Ever heard of a coal seam fire. Burned for 45 days in 2014. Long term affects on residents of the La Trobe Valley. There are hundreds/thousands around the world uncontrolled.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... tudy-finds

Go find some context.

why do you assume I support coal seam gas?

if you want context maybe start with the fact these batteries generate zero electricity

Correct - they don't generate electricity. They store it from times with excess generation to be released at times of excess demand. They also provide various kinds of technical modulation that had traditionally been provided by heavy flywheels. It seems like in a few years time, just about every major substation in the network will have a battery farm next to it. I assume this will improve resilience to adverse events that remove long transmission lines at random such as the big storm a few years ago. I think the batteries have just about taken over the need for the synchronous condensers that were only installed a few years ago to compensate for the loss of spinning "baseload" (always on) generators.

There's actually a great concept there.
If we have enough storage capacity to create an excess 'supply', in times of crisis or unforeseen events with generation, we have supply to keep us powered for a small period while whatever the issue is, is resolved.

When that storm with cyclonic conditions knocked out those towers north of Adelaide, if we had a battery storage system, we could theoretically anyway have kept the lights on in Adelaide.
Now apply this battery storage on a smaller scale for pockets around the metropolitan area, or in towns, connected to the main grid of the city or towns. Even better if we can get the power transmission lines put underground instead of hanging over our heads in our suburban streets.

As I said in an earlier post, if we take out the political bullshit from this, and think of it as a technological leap for humanity, there's no reason not to do it.

[abc]

Give me a break with your diatribe.

Ever heard of a coal seam fire. Burned for 45 days in 2014. Long term affects on residents of the La Trobe Valley. There are hundreds/thousands around the world uncontrolled.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... tudy-finds

Go find some context.

why do you assume I support coal seam gas?

if you want context maybe start with the fact these batteries generate zero electricity

Correct - they don't generate electricity. They store it from times with excess generation to be released at times of excess demand. They also provide various kinds of technical modulation that had traditionally been provided by heavy flywheels. It seems like in a few years time, just about every major substation in the network will have a battery farm next to it. I assume this will improve resilience to adverse events that remove long transmission lines at random such as the big storm a few years ago. I think the batteries have just about taken over the need for the synchronous condensers that were only installed a few years ago to compensate for the loss of spinning "baseload" (always on) generators.

1 hour of electricity storage

the assumption that this would be available statewide in such an event is ridiculous

outages are often due to network issues, a battery isn't going to mitigate that

you've been sold a lemon by an industry of spin

meanwhile in countries with economic growth... and the other developed countries that aren't are using gas fired power which we're on the verge of banning

[rev]

[mattblack]

why do you assume I support coal seam gas?

if you want context maybe start with the fact these batteries generate zero electricity

Correct - they don't generate electricity. They store it from times with excess generation to be released at times of excess demand. They also provide various kinds of technical modulation that had traditionally been provided by heavy flywheels. It seems like in a few years time, just about every major substation in the network will have a battery farm next to it. I assume this will improve resilience to adverse events that remove long transmission lines at random such as the big storm a few years ago. I think the batteries have just about taken over the need for the synchronous condensers that were only installed a few years ago to compensate for the loss of spinning "baseload" (always on) generators.

1 hour of electricity storage

the assumption that this would be available statewide in such an event is ridiculous

outages are often due to network issues, a battery isn't going to mitigate that

you've been sold a lemon by an industry of spin

meanwhile in countries with economic growth... and the other developed countries that aren't are using gas fired power which we're on the verge of banning

Time to put on your tin hat abc an take it to the pub.

[abc]

Correct - they don't generate electricity. They store it from times with excess generation to be released at times of excess demand. They also provide various kinds of technical modulation that had traditionally been provided by heavy flywheels. It seems like in a few years time, just about every major substation in the network will have a battery farm next to it. I assume this will improve resilience to adverse events that remove long transmission lines at random such as the big storm a few years ago. I think the batteries have just about taken over the need for the synchronous condensers that were only installed a few years ago to compensate for the loss of spinning "baseload" (always on) generators.

1 hour of electricity storage

the assumption that this would be available statewide in such an event is ridiculous

outages are often due to network issues, a battery isn't going to mitigate that

you've been sold a lemon by an industry of spin

meanwhile in countries with economic growth... and the other developed countries that aren't are using gas fired power which we're on the verge of banning

Time to put on your tin hat abc an take it to the pub.

so you've got nothing left in your kit bag but personal insults?

[rubberman]

1 hour of electricity storage

the assumption that this would be available statewide in such an event is ridiculous

outages are often due to network issues, a battery isn't going to mitigate that

you've been sold a lemon by an industry of spin

meanwhile in countries with economic growth... and the other developed countries that aren't are using gas fired power which we're on the verge of banning

Time to put on your tin hat abc an take it to the pub.

so you've got nothing left in your kit bag but personal insults?

You pointed to 402 coal plants being built, but omitted to point out that 2600 solar and wind plants were being built at the same time. So, there's a case that you weren't really balanced in your argument. That's a 6:1 imbalance, without considering other forms of renewables such as hydro and tidal power. So, at what point, in your opinion, should imbalance be called out as tinfoil hattery? Personally, I'd call such an imbalance as simply bad faith argument and discount future so-called "evidence" from someone doing that.

[abc]

Time to put on your tin hat abc an take it to the pub.

so you've got nothing left in your kit bag but personal insults?

You pointed to 402 coal plants being built, but omitted to point out that 2600 solar and wind plants were being built at the same time. So, there's a case that you weren't really balanced in your argument. That's a 6:1 imbalance, without considering other forms of renewables such as hydro and tidal power. So, at what point, in your opinion, should imbalance be called out as tinfoil hattery? Personally, I'd call such an imbalance as simply bad faith argument and discount future so-called "evidence" from someone doing that.

1. they are mostly being built in countries who've signed up to the Paris accords... they are being forced to build them
2. why don't you compare the megawatt output instead of the number of plants?
3. why don't you compare the cost per megawatt?
4. look how few and far between they are in the two world's largest countries China and India... I think I count about 2 in India
5. again, you're ignoring gas powered plants
6. sorry to burst your bubble. time to face reality.

[PeFe]

Here is a CSIRO summation of costs of electricity production using different modes

https://www.csiro.au/en/research/techno ... ng/gencost

[SBD]

so you've got nothing left in your kit bag but personal insults?

You pointed to 402 coal plants being built, but omitted to point out that 2600 solar and wind plants were being built at the same time. So, there's a case that you weren't really balanced in your argument. That's a 6:1 imbalance, without considering other forms of renewables such as hydro and tidal power. So, at what point, in your opinion, should imbalance be called out as tinfoil hattery? Personally, I'd call such an imbalance as simply bad faith argument and discount future so-called "evidence" from someone doing that.

1. they are mostly being built in countries who've signed up to the Paris accords... they are being forced to build them
2. why don't you compare the megawatt output instead of the number of plants?
3. why don't you compare the cost per megawatt?
4. look how few and far between they are in the two world's largest countries China and India... I think I count about 2 in India
5. again, you're ignoring gas powered plants
6. sorry to burst your bubble. time to face reality.

If you have those numbers, feel free to post them, with sources. In particular, it will be interesting to see the different balances between up-front capital cost per MW (and what period it is amortised over) and ongoing operational cost per MW. I imagine many of Australia's coal (and some gas) power stations will have been fully depreciated already, but only a few wind and solar ones. Can you confirm that?

[PD2/20]

these batteries are a great idea

the one in Rockhampton is on fire

https://x.com/MorningGunk/status/170717 ... 42032?s=20

Genex Power, the owner and operator of the Bouldercombe Battery today issued an ASX announcement regarding the fire https://app.sharelinktechnologies.com/a ... baa65f64c6 .

The fire was described as minor, of low intensity and affecting only 1 of the 40 Megapack modules.

can't be put out with water

firefighters had no choice but to allow to burn out

do you still think this is good for the environment?

I posted the link to the Genex ASX announcement as it gave more information than the 3 line text of the Morning Gunk tweet. The body of the announcement includes:

One of the 40 Megapack units caught fire at approximately 7.45pm AEST last night. No-one was on site
at the time of the incident. On advice from Queensland Fire and Emergency Services and established
protocols the low intensity fire is being allowed to burn out under the supervision of Queensland Fire
and Emergency Services, with no water required to be used on the fire itself. No other Megapack
modules have been impacted. The fire is currently contained and the site has been disconnected from
the grid.

The announcement made the statement "with no water required to be used on the fire itself" which is not the same as your "can't be put out with water". A significant fact about the fire was that it was contained to one of the 40 Megapacks and that no other modules were impacted.

[PD2/20]

...
if you want context maybe start with the fact these batteries generate zero electricity

Correct - they don't generate electricity. They store it from times with excess generation to be released at times of excess demand. They also provide various kinds of technical modulation that had traditionally been provided by heavy flywheels. It seems like in a few years time, just about every major substation in the network will have a battery farm next to it. I assume this will improve resilience to adverse events that remove long transmission lines at random such as the big storm a few years ago. I think the batteries have just about taken over the need for the synchronous condensers that were only installed a few years ago to compensate for the loss of spinning "baseload" (always on) generators.

I would maintain that it is helpful to view a (storage) battery as a device that can act both as a generator and as a load, but at different times. This highlights that there are real electrical energy flows into and out of the battery when charging and discharge. A battery without these energy flows would be useless. I recognise that the energy that can be discharge in one cycle is limited to the storage capacity of the battery.

AEMO in its registration process for grid batteries uses the terms 'generator' and 'load' to identify the two distinct roles they perform in the grid.