News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

[rev]

abc, there’s a big difference between the long transmission lines and the shorter distribution lines. The latter are much more vulnerable, but affect far fewer people.

More batteries in the metro area would reduce vulnerability to transmission line faults, though as these are rare it probably wouldn’t make much difference to overall reliability.

Maybe once enough houses have solar and centrally controlled batteries, distribution failures can be isolated and individual streets can work as islands. That would take some major rethinking by SAPN to make able to happen, and require battery owners to be prepared to have their output controlled.

What they should be doing is setting up 'community battery storage'. Every household should be setup with solar, not some bullshit 3kw system that does nothing, but a proper setup. Everyone feeds into and from that. Basically creating self sustained 'battery islands'. Managed by an SAPN that is brought back under STATE control not owned by some foreigners. The only bill anyone should ever get is maintenance charges for the battery & supply of power back to them.

Or, the government heavily subsidises both solar & battery as a package for every household, making every household self sufficient.

About half of the homes in SA aren't setup with solar yet, about 400,000. If it costs around $20,000 for a decent solar & battery setup, that's about $8 billion.
Cheaper then the T2D project, and to think of how much has already been spent on the NSM, a road, it's outrageous that it isn't being done.

[claybro]

abc, there’s a big difference between the long transmission lines and the shorter distribution lines. The latter are much more vulnerable, but affect far fewer people.

More batteries in the metro area would reduce vulnerability to transmission line faults, though as these are rare it probably wouldn’t make much difference to overall reliability.

Maybe once enough houses have solar and centrally controlled batteries, distribution failures can be isolated and individual streets can work as islands. That would take some major rethinking by SAPN to make able to happen, and require battery owners to be prepared to have their output controlled.

What they should be doing is setting up 'community battery storage'. Every household should be setup with solar, not some bullshit 3kw system that does nothing, but a proper setup. Everyone feeds into and from that. Basically creating self sustained 'battery islands'. Managed by an SAPN that is brought back under STATE control not owned by some foreigners. The only bill anyone should ever get is maintenance charges for the battery & supply of power back to them.

Or, the government heavily subsidises both solar & battery as a package for every household, making every household self sufficient.

About half of the homes in SA aren't setup with solar yet, about 400,000. If it costs around $20,000 for a decent solar & battery setup, that's about $8 billion.
Cheaper then the T2D project, and to think of how much has already been spent on the NSM, a road, it's outrageous that it isn't being done.

You are talking as if panels and batteries alone can now produce 24/7 power… even enough for homes. In Winter, the sun is only able to generate power for at best 6 hours. Then throw in a few cloudy days on the trot your neighbourhood batteries would be out of power. What if there is a small manufacturing setup in you area?, even less power to go around. What backup system are you proposing? Small local gas generators? How many ? At what cost?

[rev]

Maybe once enough houses have solar and centrally controlled batteries, distribution failures can be isolated and individual streets can work as islands. That would take some major rethinking by SAPN to make able to happen, and require battery owners to be prepared to have their output controlled.

What they should be doing is setting up 'community battery storage'. Every household should be setup with solar, not some bullshit 3kw system that does nothing, but a proper setup. Everyone feeds into and from that. Basically creating self sustained 'battery islands'. Managed by an SAPN that is brought back under STATE control not owned by some foreigners. The only bill anyone should ever get is maintenance charges for the battery & supply of power back to them.

Or, the government heavily subsidises both solar & battery as a package for every household, making every household self sufficient.

About half of the homes in SA aren't setup with solar yet, about 400,000. If it costs around $20,000 for a decent solar & battery setup, that's about $8 billion.
Cheaper then the T2D project, and to think of how much has already been spent on the NSM, a road, it's outrageous that it isn't being done.

You are talking as if panels and batteries alone can now produce 24/7 power… even enough for homes. In Winter, the sun is only able to generate power for at best 6 hours. Then throw in a few cloudy days on the trot your neighbourhood batteries would be out of power. What if there is a small manufacturing setup in you area?, even less power to go around. What backup system are you proposing? Small local gas generators? How many ? At what cost?

First, my idea isn't actually my idea. It's something that was suggested or proposed a few years ago. And I'm specifically talking about homes, not businesses of any kind, manufacturing or otherwise.
I'm in no way suggesting every business be switched over to solar. I'm not even talking about electric vehicles.
There's a report this week that a factory that produces the batteries for electric vehicles requires so much electricity to function, that they need a coal power plant to keep it running.
I'm talking about relieving the cost of living long term for households, freeing people up of at least one ridiculously costly and needless utility bill in the 21st century.

I don't know a single person who has installed solar and/or a battery and had an issue in winter powering their home. Of course they didn't have those tiny solar systems you see advertised installed, they went bigger.

Ever been into a Bunnings recently? They all have solar now, well at least here in Adelaide they do. They have a monitor out the front showing how much is generated, and I believe how many homes it could power. Quite a bit even in winter.

[PeFe]

AEMO has released a discussion paper about future SA energy needs around peak time.

From Renew Economy

South Australia is going to need a bigger battery to keep the lights on in evening peak


Torrens Island big battery. Photo: AGL.

South Australia will need to add the biggest battery yet to its wind and solar dominated grid by 2026/27 if it is to ensure that the lights stay on and reliability standards are met, according to a new report by the Australian Energy Market Operator.

The confirmation that Australia’s interim reliability standard – which sets a maximum limit of just 0.0006 per cent of “unserved energy” a year – has forced AEMO to update its reliability forecasts for all states.

South Australia is the most impacted by the extension of the IRS, with AEMO estimating a potential shortfall of 215MW in the evening peaks in 2026. It has called for a so-called “t3” instrument to be put into place – through the Australian Energy Regulator – to ensure that capacity is delivered.

The AEMO assessment does not take into account projects which are not regarded as “committed” at the time of publication, and presumably that also includes the 200 MW green hydrogen plant that the South Australia government hopes to have in place by the end of 2025.

The South Australia government had planned to announce the winners of that tender – also including a 250 MW green hydrogen electrolyser at Whyalla as part of its $600 million green hydrogen plan – before the end of September, but it clearly has been delayed.



The table above shows the various combinations that AEMO suggests could fill the gap. The open cycle gas turbine is unlikely, given the new focus on environment and emissions in the National Electricity Objective, which leaves the field open to either the S.A. hydrogen project, or a big battery, possibly paired with wind and solar.

However, even with more wind and solar, the minimum battery storage retirement is 578MWh, to cover the periods from 5pm to 9pm in the summer heat on working weekdays that AEMO is most worried about, and when the amount of rooftop solar rapidly declines.

It puts the one one-in-two year peak demand forecast for the forecast reliability gap period at 3,137 MW, and includes a range of estimates including more EVs, greater electrification of homes and businesses, new industrial loads, and partly offset by greater energy efficiencies, more demand response and home batteries.

The state currently hosts four operating big batteries, with the biggest being the newly opened 250MW/250MWh Torrens Island battery, which has the potential to be expanded to four hour storage, or 1,000MWh – which would also help meet the new capacity requirement.

Other big batteries are already being built at Blyth (200MW and 400MWh) by Neoen, and new ones are proposed at Bungama (150MW and 300MWh) by Amp Energy and at Templers (111MW and 270MWh) by Zen Energy. The 42MW/42MWh Tailem Bend battery is also waiting to be commissioned.

South Australia already sources more than 70 per cent of its demand through wind and solar (averaged over the past year), which is the highest in the world in a grid this size.

A new connection to NSW due to be opened in 2026 is expected to drive this to “net 100 per cent renewables) in rapid time, and will also be helped by its push to green hydrogen facilities, both at Whyalla and through the new Port Bonython precinct.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/south-austr ... ning-peak/

[abc]

most expensive energy in the world

why would any business want to set up here

[mattblack]

most expensive energy in the world

why would any business want to set up here

Wrong .......... Again.

Top 10 Countries With the Highest Electricity Costs:

Denmark — 0.538
Germany — 0.530
United Kingdom — 0.479
Austria — 0.471
Italy — 0.470
Belgium — 0.452
Bermuda — 0.395
Spain — 0.373
Cayman Islands — 0.366
Czech Republic — 0.367

Why SA's power prices are the highest in the country
The Advertiser
15 June 2023 — At 36.1c/kWh, South Australian electricity is the most expensive in the country, while NSW's was the cheapest at about 26.5c/kWh.

Please do 10 seconds of research before posting crap.

[mattblack]

most expensive energy in the world

why would any business want to set up here

Wrong .......... Again.

Top 10 Countries With the Highest Electricity Costs:

Denmark — 0.538
Germany — 0.530
United Kingdom — 0.479
Austria — 0.471
Italy — 0.470
Belgium — 0.452
Bermuda — 0.395
Spain — 0.373
Cayman Islands — 0.366
Czech Republic — 0.367

Why SA's power prices are the highest in the country
The Advertiser
15 June 2023 — At 36.1c/kWh, South Australian electricity is the most expensive in the country, while NSW's was the cheapest at about 26.5c/kWh.

Please do 10 seconds of research before posting crap.

Another nail in your inane, tiresome and pointless throw away comment abc;

Japanese laser fusion technology to help power SA’s green future
Release date: 10/10/23

A Japanese company with plans to produce a revolutionary source of green energy will establish its international presence in South Australia – fuelling the State’s position as a global hydrogen leader.

EX-Fusion is developing cutting-edge laser fusion technology – fusing hydrogen isotopes – to produce safe, sustainable, and reliable energy for power generation.

Trade and Investment Minister Nick Champion was at the Australia-Japan Business Co-Operation Committee Joint Conference for the announcement in Melbourne overnight.

Laser fusion energy is being touted as a gamechanger to achieving Australia’s target of carbon neutrality by 2050, helping to respond to load fluctuations and meet market demands, while decarbonising existing energy sources.

By commercialising fusion energy and working with industry, EX-Fusion aims to reduce carbon emissions by approximately 14.49 billion tonnes – equivalent to two per cent of the world’s total emissions by 2050.

The company, led by Dr Kazuki Matsuo, draws on more than 50 years of research at Osaka University to develop the technology, which is increasingly sought after.

The laser fusion technology made international news late last year, with scientists at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory overcoming a major barrier in nuclear fusion when – for the first time – they were able to produce more energy from a fusion experiment than was put in.

Invest SA has been working closely with EX-Fusion who was attracted to South Australia through its first mover advantage, backed by the Malinauskas Labor Government’s $593 million Hydrogen Jobs Plan along with legislative framework and significant industry development and opportunities in the space.

The company also sees potential for bio-medical industries and collaborations with SAHMRI 2, the Australian Bragg Centre for Proton Therapy and Research.

The company will set up a wholly owned subsidiary, expected to be operational in South Australia by the end of the year.

To help prepare for the move, in December 2022 EX-Fusion signed a memorandum of understanding with laser fusion firm HB-11 Energy and the University of Adelaide to assist and expedite laser and photonic research through shared facilities.

The company made news this week with the Nikkei Asia reporting EX-Fusion’s agreement with Electro Optic Systems – endorsed by Japan’s Minister of Economy, Trade and Industry, Yasutoshi Nishimura – to pilot technology to track space junk described as: “a jumping-off point (for the Japanese Government) to expand cooperation with Australia.”

See link for more info on technology for those who have issues doing reseach (or a simple google search)
https://en.ex-fusion.com/

[abc]

most expensive energy in the world

why would any business want to set up here

Wrong .......... Again.

Top 10 Countries With the Highest Electricity Costs:

Denmark — 0.538
Germany — 0.530
United Kingdom — 0.479
Austria — 0.471
Italy — 0.470
Belgium — 0.452
Bermuda — 0.395
Spain — 0.373
Cayman Islands — 0.366
Czech Republic — 0.367

Why SA's power prices are the highest in the country
The Advertiser
15 June 2023 — At 36.1c/kWh, South Australian electricity is the most expensive in the country, while NSW's was the cheapest at about 26.5c/kWh.

Please do 10 seconds of research before posting crap.

"10 seconds of research"

and herein lies your problem, you believe the first result that Google throws up without digging deeper

lets start with Germany, its now an economic basketcase because it had previously cheap energy which underpinned its manufacturing boom through the 2010s, ie natural gas sourced from Russia

western terrorists blew up that pipeline and that ended that

you won't read that in The Advertiser

[mattblack]

most expensive energy in the world

why would any business want to set up here

Wrong .......... Again.

Top 10 Countries With the Highest Electricity Costs:

Denmark — 0.538
Germany — 0.530
United Kingdom — 0.479
Austria — 0.471
Italy — 0.470
Belgium — 0.452
Bermuda — 0.395
Spain — 0.373
Cayman Islands — 0.366
Czech Republic — 0.367

Why SA's power prices are the highest in the country
The Advertiser
15 June 2023 — At 36.1c/kWh, South Australian electricity is the most expensive in the country, while NSW's was the cheapest at about 26.5c/kWh.

Please do 10 seconds of research before posting crap.

"10 seconds of research"

and herein lies your problem, you believe the first result that Google throws up without digging deeper

lets start with Germany, its now an economic basketcase because it had previously cheap energy which underpinned its manufacturing boom through the 2010s, ie natural gas sourced from Russia

western terrorists blew up that pipeline and that ended that

you won't read that in The Advertiser

So your point to underpin your assertion that South Australia has the highest energy prices in the world is that Germany now has higher energy prices than what they had previously because of the fallout from the war in Ukraine.

Not really much of a point.

[abc]

Wrong .......... Again.

Top 10 Countries With the Highest Electricity Costs:

Denmark — 0.538
Germany — 0.530
United Kingdom — 0.479
Austria — 0.471
Italy — 0.470
Belgium — 0.452
Bermuda — 0.395
Spain — 0.373
Cayman Islands — 0.366
Czech Republic — 0.367

Why SA's power prices are the highest in the country
The Advertiser
15 June 2023 — At 36.1c/kWh, South Australian electricity is the most expensive in the country, while NSW's was the cheapest at about 26.5c/kWh.

Please do 10 seconds of research before posting crap.

"10 seconds of research"

and herein lies your problem, you believe the first result that Google throws up without digging deeper

lets start with Germany, its now an economic basketcase because it had previously cheap energy which underpinned its manufacturing boom through the 2010s, ie natural gas sourced from Russia

western terrorists blew up that pipeline and that ended that

you won't read that in The Advertiser

So your point to underpin your assertion that South Australia has the highest energy prices in the world is that Germany now has higher energy prices than what they had previously because of the fallout from the war in Ukraine.

Not really much of a point.

it is when you realise they're now reliant on 'renewables' because of a shortfall from traditional energy sources after they stupidly closed their nuclear power generation in the previous decade

meanwhile in South Australia we have one of the highest reserves of uranium in the world but we're not allowed to use it because of political corruption...even Mali floated the idea but was shut down promptly by Albo

[PeFe]

it is when you realise they're now reliant on 'renewables' because of a shortfall from traditional energy sources after they stupidly closed their nuclear power generation in the previous decade

Germany is not an economic basket case.....you provide no economic analysis from any independent source to back that up.

And Germany did not close its nuclear plants last decade.....the last one closed April 15 2023.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/18/germany ... ghast.html

meanwhile in South Australia we have one of the highest reserves of uranium in the world but we're not allowed to use it because of political corruption...even Mali floated the idea but was shut down promptly by Albo

What corruption ? Dont make such outrageous comments without proof.....it just demeans this forum. Sensational Adelaide is supposed to be a step above yobs in the front bar expressing opinions formed in the stupour of ignorance.

And Australia has a legal ban on nuclear energy, even if Mali wanted nuclear power the ban has to overturned at a federal level.

And Australia exports uranium in huge quantities at a $$$$ price.

And on to more positive things.......South Australia achieved another first on Sunday producing more than demand power from rooftop solar....not the first time but getting bigger and better. Yes Sunday is the low demand electricity day but this is a foretaste of future events......ie need for more batteries, need to heat water in the middle of the day instead of the middle of the night, and need to charge electric cars during during daily solar excess.

From Renew Economy

Solar reaches new peak of 126.7 pct of South Australia demand, NSW coal at record low

The combination of rooftop solar and large scale solar set yet another new record over the weekend, accounting for 126.7 per cent of South Australia state demand at its peak at 12.55pm (AEST) on Sunday.

The new benchmark, sourced from data analysts GPE NEMLog2, comes just a week after rooftop solar alone accounted for more than 101 per cent of state demand.

On Sunday, rooftop solar reached a peak of around 95 per cent, with utility scale solar providing the rest. It reached a peak of 31.6 per cent, a record for the state. Excess power is either exported to Victoria or stored in the state’s growing portfolio of household batteries.

That high share for large scale solar is unusual because it is often turned off in the face of negative prices. The combination of large scale and rooftop solar first exceeded 100 per cent of state demand in 2020, but has not grown so rapidly in recent years because of the growing number of negative pricing intervals.



It wasn’t the only record to tumble in the last couple of days, with rooftop solar PV continuing to make a mess of the NSW coal generators’ business plans as it set new output records and pushed coal output to new lows.

Rest of the article discussing NSW.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/solar-reach ... ecord-low/

[cocoiadrop]

It's hardly political "corruption" (or whatever conspiracy you want) that stops nuclear energy either, its public opinion. https://poll.lowyinstitute.org/charts/n ... australia/

Although it is split down the middle between the yes and no side it would become a political weapon that Labour would probably want to avoid right now

[rubberman]

It's hardly political "corruption" (or whatever conspiracy you want) that stops nuclear energy either, its public opinion. https://poll.lowyinstitute.org/charts/n ... australia/

Although it is split down the middle between the yes and no side it would become a political weapon that Labour would probably want to avoid right now

It's also expensive as hell. As for being a political weapon? Well the Coalition's record on the NBN, Murray Darling Basin Plan, Snowy Mk2, Inland Rail, previous energy policy, submarine procurement tells me that anyone who wants nuclear power would be ill advised to vote for a party that couldn't build a hydro scheme...or a rail line. If you want a completed complex project done, you'd be nuts to vote for a political party whose record on infrastructure is so bad, it couldn't build the car parks it rorted. Peter Duttno is talking about it, sure. However, there's simply no way that he or the Coalition has the ability to make it happen. In fact, voting for the Coalition is a good way to ensure it won't happen.

Which brings me to the whole hopelessness of the case for nuclear in Australia. The Greens and Labor won't build it, and the Coalition can't. If they couldn't build a hydro plant, they sure as heck have zero chance of building nuclear.

[abc]

it is when you realise they're now reliant on 'renewables' because of a shortfall from traditional energy sources after they stupidly closed their nuclear power generation in the previous decade

Germany is not an economic basket case.....you provide no economic analysis from any independent source to back that up.

And Germany did not close its nuclear plants last decade.....the last one closed April 15 2023.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/18/germany ... ghast.html

meanwhile in South Australia we have one of the highest reserves of uranium in the world but we're not allowed to use it because of political corruption...even Mali floated the idea but was shut down promptly by Albo

What corruption ? Dont make such outrageous comments without proof.....it just demeans this forum. Sensational Adelaide is supposed to be a step above yobs in the front bar expressing opinions formed in the stupour of ignorance.

And Australia has a legal ban on nuclear energy, even if Mali wanted nuclear power the ban has to overturned at a federal level.

And Australia exports uranium in huge quantities at a $$$$ price.

And on to more positive things.......South Australia achieved another first on Sunday producing more than demand power from rooftop solar....not the first time but getting bigger and better. Yes Sunday is the low demand electricity day but this is a foretaste of future events......ie need for more batteries, need to heat water in the middle of the day instead of the middle of the night, and need to charge electric cars during during daily solar excess.

From Renew Economy

Solar reaches new peak of 126.7 pct of South Australia demand, NSW coal at record low

The combination of rooftop solar and large scale solar set yet another new record over the weekend, accounting for 126.7 per cent of South Australia state demand at its peak at 12.55pm (AEST) on Sunday.

The new benchmark, sourced from data analysts GPE NEMLog2, comes just a week after rooftop solar alone accounted for more than 101 per cent of state demand.

On Sunday, rooftop solar reached a peak of around 95 per cent, with utility scale solar providing the rest. It reached a peak of 31.6 per cent, a record for the state. Excess power is either exported to Victoria or stored in the state’s growing portfolio of household batteries.

That high share for large scale solar is unusual because it is often turned off in the face of negative prices. The combination of large scale and rooftop solar first exceeded 100 per cent of state demand in 2020, but has not grown so rapidly in recent years because of the growing number of negative pricing intervals.



It wasn’t the only record to tumble in the last couple of days, with rooftop solar PV continuing to make a mess of the NSW coal generators’ business plans as it set new output records and pushed coal output to new lows.

Rest of the article discussing NSW.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/solar-reach ... ecord-low/

oh please

even AP is saying it and they're the media source all the regional government approved media of the western world get their 'facts' from

Germany went from envy of the world to the worst-performing major developed economy. What happened?

https://apnews.com/article/germany-econ ... cd85ae84ed

[abc]

It's hardly political "corruption" (or whatever conspiracy you want) that stops nuclear energy either, its public opinion. https://poll.lowyinstitute.org/charts/n ... australia/

Although it is split down the middle between the yes and no side it would become a political weapon that Labour would probably want to avoid right now

It's also expensive as hell. As for being a political weapon? Well the Coalition's record on the NBN, Murray Darling Basin Plan, Snowy Mk2, Inland Rail, previous energy policy, submarine procurement tells me that anyone who wants nuclear power would be ill advised to vote for a party that couldn't build a hydro scheme...or a rail line. If you want a completed complex project done, you'd be nuts to vote for a political party whose record on infrastructure is so bad, it couldn't build the car parks it rorted. Peter Duttno is talking about it, sure. However, there's simply no way that he or the Coalition has the ability to make it happen. In fact, voting for the Coalition is a good way to ensure it won't happen.

Which brings me to the whole hopelessness of the case for nuclear in Australia. The Greens and Labor won't build it, and the Coalition can't. If they couldn't build a hydro plant, they sure as heck have zero chance of building nuclear.

garbage

if it weren't viable we wouldn't be mining uranium and exporting it overseas

its entirely political