[VIS] Passenger Trains to Mount Barker

[SBD]

This is my point though - nobody even wants to engage in a debate on the pro's and con's of the various options suggested by the Infrastructure Australia review. Residents of the hills could be making a huge fuss right now about the state of Glen Osmond Road - asking why there isn't tidal flow as suggested by IA, or enhanced bus priority measures (which to be fair, the government has initiated), to improve their journey times to the city. Instead its crickets.

Instead it's just an all-or-nothing "must be heavy rail and we need it now" attitude, throwing the net wider and wider, including to Mount Gambier, to justify the means.

I want to lift the conversation to higher level too - why do we want to make it easier for Mount Barker people to commute to Adelaide? Sometimes there are comments about it becoming SA's second biggest city. Let's talk about building the things that a city has in Mount Barker so that people don't need/want to commute to Adelaide. We can spend money on better metro public transport (train/bus/whatever) or we can spend money on reducing the need so the freeway won't need widening or replicating. Mount Barker and surrounds need upgrades to health, higher education, employment (private and public, at all levels), entertainment...

People shouldn't need to travel from Mount Barker to Adelaide any more often than they need to travel from Mount Gambier, Port Lincoln or Whyalla.

[Modbury_Man]

$6b on a rail tunnel wouldn't be just to the Hills/Mt Barker - it would be beyond, potentially opening up the whole south-east of SA to viable passenger rail. If we can spend $15b for an unsustainable 10km hole in the ground to benefit the false economy of road freight, then $6b is petty cash for a wealthy economy.

It is now cheaper for people living in Mt Gambier to leave the state and head over to Portland then onto the rest of Victoria from there, than it is to travel through SA.

False economy of road freight....how do you get your goods, by magic carpet?

I'm shocked it's cheaper to go an hour from Mt Gambier to Portland then it is to go four-five hours to Adelaide. Who would have thought.

It's cheaper to go anywhere in Victoria from Mt Gambier on the Vline coach services now - adult fare Mt Gambier to Melbourne is $7.20 on a weekend & $10.60 on a weekday. Adult fare on Stateliner coach from Mt Gambier to Adelaide is $85.20!

[MT269]

Adelaide is still slightly closer than Melbourne. The fares are disproportionate. But when there is no alternative option apart from driving, one is helpless to put up a cry.

[dbl96]

$6b on a rail tunnel wouldn't be just to the Hills/Mt Barker - it would be beyond, potentially opening up the whole south-east of SA to viable passenger rail. If we can spend $15b for an unsustainable 10km hole in the ground to benefit the false economy of road freight, then $6b is petty cash for a wealthy economy.

It is now cheaper for people living in Mt Gambier to leave the state and head over to Portland then onto the rest of Victoria from there, than it is to travel through SA.

False economy of road freight....how do you get your goods, by magic carpet?

I'm shocked it's cheaper to go an hour from Mt Gambier to Portland then it is to go four-five hours to Adelaide. Who would have thought.

It's cheaper to go anywhere in Victoria from Mt Gambier on the Vline coach services now - adult fare Mt Gambier to Melbourne is $7.20 on a weekend & $10.60 on a weekday. Adult fare on Stateliner coach from Mt Gambier to Adelaide is $85.20!

It gets better - thanks to Dan Andrew’s public transport price cap, the cheapest way to travel between Adelaide and Mount Gambier is now by VLine with an interchange in Melbourne. $31.80 full fare, $15.90 concession. It was even less prior to the recent fare rise.

Still, if I was living in Mount Gambier right now, and needed to go to a major city for whatever reason, I know which one I would pick. $85.20 vs $7.20 for a similar distance trip. And the $7.20 option gets you to Melbourne where there is more of whatever big city things Mount Gambier doesn’t have than in Adelaide anyway.

[rev]

$6b on a rail tunnel wouldn't be just to the Hills/Mt Barker - it would be beyond, potentially opening up the whole south-east of SA to viable passenger rail. If we can spend $15b for an unsustainable 10km hole in the ground to benefit the false economy of road freight, then $6b is petty cash for a wealthy economy.

It is now cheaper for people living in Mt Gambier to leave the state and head over to Portland then onto the rest of Victoria from there, than it is to travel through SA.

False economy of road freight....how do you get your goods, by magic carpet?

I'm shocked it's cheaper to go an hour from Mt Gambier to Portland then it is to go four-five hours to Adelaide. Who would have thought.

It's cheaper to go anywhere in Victoria from Mt Gambier on the Vline coach services now - adult fare Mt Gambier to Melbourne is $7.20 on a weekend & $10.60 on a weekday. Adult fare on Stateliner coach from Mt Gambier to Adelaide is $85.20!

Doesn't the Victorian state government provide nearly a billion dollars in subsidies to VLine though?
We're not really comparing apples and apples here then.

[dbl96]

False economy of road freight....how do you get your goods, by magic carpet?

I'm shocked it's cheaper to go an hour from Mt Gambier to Portland then it is to go four-five hours to Adelaide. Who would have thought.

It's cheaper to go anywhere in Victoria from Mt Gambier on the Vline coach services now - adult fare Mt Gambier to Melbourne is $7.20 on a weekend & $10.60 on a weekday. Adult fare on Stateliner coach from Mt Gambier to Adelaide is $85.20!

Doesn't the Victorian state government provide nearly a billion dollars in subsidies to VLine though?
We're not really comparing apples and apples here then.

I’m sure they do. The point is though that the Victorians are eating our lunch. It is in the interests of the state of South Australia to ensure that the people of its regions have their allegiances with Adelaide rather than Melbourne, and it is certainly in Adelaide’s economic interests to ensure we get their business rather than Melbourne getting it. But as it currently goes, we are letting down the people of regional SA, and the fact is that for those within coo-ee of the border (a pretty decent chunk of regional SA’s population), they are getting a better deal from the Vics than from SA. Of course there is no ill intent involved - the SA government just doesn’t really think about the state outside of Adelaide much. I know people will say most people live in Adelaide so that is only fair, but it means we lack a strategic approach to the development of the state as whole, which could has knock on effects for everyone, including those of us in Adelaide.

[Saltwater]

Of course the Victorians are eating our lunch. Their capital is about the same distance away from Mount Gambier as Adelaide, but is four times bigger. Victoria's Gross State Product is also roughly four times SA's. They also have large population centres like Portland and Warnambool much closer than anything on our side of the border. In summary, the pull will always be far greater to the eastern side of the border. Discounted travel fares is just the icing on the cake (not that their network can handle the volumes they're now seeing).

It would be great to see that part of Australia grow much faster, given the port at Portland and rail links through to Victoria, but located where it is along the border is often neglected.

I still don't see what any of this has to do with the current discussions on PT options to Mount Barker though. Hills residents should be asking questions about why bi-directional flow on Glen Osmond Road isn't already underway as a priority, instead all the eggs are being put in the heavy rail basket and any discourse is quickly shut down.

[abc]

Mt Gambier is to Melbourne like Broken Hill is to Adelaide...apart from the time zone

young Mt Gambians aspire to move to Melbourne

[rhino]

Mt Gambier is to Melbourne like Broken Hill is to Adelaide...apart from the time zone

young Mt Gambians aspire to move to Melbourne

Fact or opinion?

[ChillyPhilly]

$6b on a rail tunnel wouldn't be just to the Hills/Mt Barker - it would be beyond, potentially opening up the whole south-east of SA to viable passenger rail. If we can spend $15b for an unsustainable 10km hole in the ground to benefit the false economy of road freight, then $6b is petty cash for a wealthy economy.

It is now cheaper for people living in Mt Gambier to leave the state and head over to Portland then onto the rest of Victoria from there, than it is to travel through SA.

False economy of road freight....how do you get your goods, by magic carpet?

Road freight is a false economy. I'm not saying there are immediate or viable alternatives within metropolitan Adelaide except targeted measures to improve last-mile delivery. Viterra is a good example. They stopped using rail freight, switched completely to road, and later reneged. https://viterra.com.au/media/news/2023/ ... nsula-rail

I'm shocked it's cheaper to go an hour from Mt Gambier to Portland then it is to go four-five hours to Adelaide. Who would have thought.

Not shocking, no - but not ideal because we want those dollars to stay in SA. The Victorian Government's restructuring of regional V-Line public transit fares to equal that of Myki has enabled this to greater effect.

[SBD]

$6b on a rail tunnel wouldn't be just to the Hills/Mt Barker - it would be beyond, potentially opening up the whole south-east of SA to viable passenger rail. If we can spend $15b for an unsustainable 10km hole in the ground to benefit the false economy of road freight, then $6b is petty cash for a wealthy economy.

It is now cheaper for people living in Mt Gambier to leave the state and head over to Portland then onto the rest of Victoria from there, than it is to travel through SA.

False economy of road freight....how do you get your goods, by magic carpet?

Road freight is a false economy. I'm not saying there are immediate or viable alternatives within metropolitan Adelaide except targeted measures to improve last-mile delivery. Viterra is a good example. They stopped using rail freight, switched completely to road, and later reneged. https://viterra.com.au/media/news/2023/ ... nsula-rail

I'm shocked it's cheaper to go an hour from Mt Gambier to Portland then it is to go four-five hours to Adelaide. Who would have thought.

Not shocking, no - but not ideal because we want those dollars to stay in SA. The Victorian Government's restructuring of regional V-Line public transit fares to equal that of Myki has enabled this to greater effect.

South Australia could match Victoria by offering regional public transport at the same price to users as it costs for a Gawler-Seaford Adelaide Metro ticket.

What confidence could we have that the next change of government would maintain the service? I can imagine them deciding it's costly and underutilised, so half the routes are cut completely and the trunk routes reduced in frequency. Much regional public transport is provided by LinkSA (owned by Keolis-Downer). It's already privatised to make it easier to shut down with positive spin.

[ChillyPhilly]

$6b on a rail tunnel wouldn't be just to the Hills/Mt Barker - it would be beyond, potentially opening up the whole south-east of SA to viable passenger rail. If we can spend $15b for an unsustainable 10km hole in the ground to benefit the false economy of road freight, then $6b is petty cash for a wealthy economy.

It is now cheaper for people living in Mt Gambier to leave the state and head over to Portland then onto the rest of Victoria from there, than it is to travel through SA.

False economy of road freight....how do you get your goods, by magic carpet?

Road freight is a false economy. I'm not saying there are immediate or viable alternatives within metropolitan Adelaide except targeted measures to improve last-mile delivery. Viterra is a good example. They stopped using rail freight, switched completely to road, and later reneged. https://viterra.com.au/media/news/2023/ ... nsula-rail

I'm shocked it's cheaper to go an hour from Mt Gambier to Portland then it is to go four-five hours to Adelaide. Who would have thought.

Not shocking, no - but not ideal because we want those dollars to stay in SA. The Victorian Government's restructuring of regional V-Line public transit fares to equal that of Myki has enabled this to greater effect.

South Australia could match Victoria by offering regional public transport at the same price to users as it costs for a Gawler-Seaford Adelaide Metro ticket.

What confidence could we have that the next change of government would maintain the service? I can imagine them deciding it's costly and underutilised, so half the routes are cut completely and the trunk routes reduced in frequency. Much regional public transport is provided by LinkSA (owned by Keolis-Downer). It's already privatised to make it easier to shut down with positive spin.

I agree, and it would be good to see a standard public transport pass for the whole state.

[Nort]

It would certainly make the state feel more connected if you could go to Adelaide Train Station and see the boards advertising trains to destinations like Pirie, Gambier, or even Tanunda.

[abc]

It would certainly make the state feel more connected if you could go to Adelaide Train Station and see the boards advertising trains to destinations like Pirie, Gambier, or even Tanunda.

this was the case up until the 1980s

intrastate trains have been phased out and made obsolete...replaced by bus services. There really is no business case to go back to trains.

The Adelaide Railway Station used to be quite an interesting place in those days prior.

[dbl96]

Considering that Balhannah and Hahndorf are at very similar elevations above sea level, that is a very steep railway from Bridgewater to Hahndorf.

Bridgewater is at approximately 400m above sea level, and Hahndorf is at approximately 350m. The proposed alignment is at a minimum 5000m between the two stations, so at a constant gradient, the slope would only be 1%, which is completely workable.

Of course, this requires that the gradient is constant - which is only possible with a tunnel under Bridgewater East and a substantial viaduct to bring the railway over the Ongkaparinga Valley.

NIMBYs, environmentalists and just about everyone else would object to a high viaduct there!

I'm curious about the gradient of your proposed route from Mitcham to Aldgate, too. Presumably you propose a long tunnel under Crafers and Stirling from somewhere in Brownhill Creek?

I'm sure they would, but would a railway bridge through an already disturbed agricultural area really be any worse a scar on the landscape than the freeway is? Designed right, it could be quite beautiful.

Yeah, the route people have discussed previously would be to use the Brownhill Creek valley to ascend the hills face, because the gradient is fairly manageable. I'm honestly not really in favour of it though because that really would be a scar on the landscape. It would completely disturb the peace and natural charm of one of the loveliest areas of the hills face.

I think a better option would be a direct tunnel from Mitcham to the Aldgate area, which would probably be somewhere in the range of 10-15km. I'm no expert in tunnel engineering, so cant comment on what the most suitable route would be, but assuming a tunnel of 15km, at constant grade, you would be looking at about 2.3% gradient from Mitcham (approx. 80 m above sea level) to Aldgate (approx. 420 m). A shorter option might be possible (assuming no freight trains on the line), but the gradient would start to get unmanageable.

More complicated would be if we want to have a station at Stirling, which I think would be ideal, considering its role as the strongest town centre and transport hub in this part of the Hills. The station would need to be a considerable depth - Stirling is a bit over 2 km from Aldgate down the tunnel, but elevation there is about 80m higher. You could design the tunnel from Mitcham to Stirling in a way that gave sufficient length to allow for appropriate gradients, but it still couldn't come too close to the surface at Stirling because it would then have to descend very steeply into Aldgate. As a consequence, whatever way it is designed, Stirling would have to be a fairly deep station. Expensive no doubt, but not impossible, there are metro stations in Moscow and Chongqing at over 100m deep. I don't think a Stirling station would need to be quite as deep as that.

Again, I don't have the engineering expertise, but there might be issues tunneling through the Hills face as it is an active fault zone. Please comment if you can throw any light on this.

Apparently a base tunnel under the Mount Lofty Ranges was considered back in the 60s. The idea never went anywhere, although apparently not because of technical issues. This article is an interesting read: https://www.ozroads.com.au/SA/New/1/Pri ... istory.htm