News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

[rev]

If you feel you are being lied to, then the thing to do is make the effort to check some facts. While not all facts are easy to obtain, some are. For example, with a minimum of effort, a person can check the price of a solar installation and work out their pay back period. If a person can pay it off and over time save money, then it's cheaper. This is probably an hour or so of effort.

Now, if an individual could do it cheaper with rooftop solar and batteries, then there's a bloody good chance that doing exactly the same at industrial scale will be far cheaper still.

And if the ordinary person, and industrial scale solar can do it cheaper, then if your bill is bigger, something else is causing it. Yeah, someone is lying to you...the ones blaming renewables. You don't need to take anybody's word, or be a victim of anybody's lies. Just spend an hour or so looking at prices and payback periods.

So you don't feel you're being lied to? Do you feel they've been honest and upfront with you and have acted with integrity and with the interests of the wider community in mind? You'd probably be the only one who does, I doubt even the politicians who dribble shit for a living believe that.

We've been promised cheaper electricity for years now.
Every year, it keeps going up and up and up.

Renewables we were told, would make it cheaper. The opposite has happened.
The excuses were then rolled out, that it's because gas or coal or the unicorns are making electricity more expensive.

But then we see posts gushing over the fact that SA produces most of it's power from renewables, and in quite a few instances 100% of demand was met by renewables.

But still we're told gas or coal are to blame.


You guys are going to need to have another GetUp Labour Caucus meeting and dive deep to find some new excuses that people might believe.

What I'm saying, is you can run the number yourself. It's painfully simple, like grade 3 arithmetic, simple. If you can install a solar system on your own home, and do it cheaper than Origin, then IT ISN'T RENEWABLES.

Why even bother with the speculation rabbit hole you are diving down? If you can do it cheaper than Origin with renewables, why not just do it, and let everyone else argue, while you have cheaper power?

Why don't you humour us and run the numbers for us, since you're a genius who can do grade 3 arithmetic.
You said it's simple, but you spend more time talking rubbish beating around the bush instead.

Not exactly sure why you're babbling on about whatever you're babbling on about what it's got to do with the bullshit broken promises, but hey, lets see where you take this, I'm bored today.

[SBD]

Gee it's boring when the forum is full of two people stating their opinions over and over. If either of you have facts about the price drivers of retail electricity, then please share them. If all you have is opinions and conjecture you've already stated, please hold off until there's something new.

[PeFe]

SA pushes forward its net zero target date to 2027

From Renew Economy

South Australia fast-tracks 100 pct renewables target to 2027



The South Australia state government says it has fast tracked its target of “net 100 per cent” renewables to 2027 – rather than 2030 – as a result of the state’s new wind and solar developments and its ambitious hydrogen plans.

South Australia already leads the world with more 71 per cent (or 74 per cent according to government data) of its annual demand being met by wind and solar only over the last 12 months.

“Net” 100 per cent renewables, means producing enough wind and solar to meet the annual demand figure, although some excess wind and solar will be exported when not needed in South Australia, and electricity imported from other states at other times. Gas power will still be used at certain times.

We must not rest on our laurels and we cannot afford complacency,” premier Peter Malinauskas said in a statement on Tuesday, soon after visiting the top of a wind turbine at the Lincoln Gap wind farm. “The time is right to recalibrate and set an even more ambitious target.



“The world is demanding that economies decarbonise to avoid the risk of catastrophic climate change. Our bountiful resources of wind and solar energy provide us the opportunity to seize the moment and produce what the world demands.“

South Australia has always had the most ambitious renewable energy targets in Australia, but the reality is that it has never set a target that it knew it couldn’t meet.

It has been clear for some time that the state would reach “net 100 per cent” renewables well before the deadline set by the previous Liberal government in 2020 (yes, the state has a remarkable amount of bipartisan support, because there is no local coal industry to capture the conservatives).

The Australian Energy Market Operator had predicted it could be reached by 2026, and late last year the transmission company ElectraNet confirmed the “net 100 per cent” renewables target would be met several years early. It noted that wind and solar had met all the state’s demand on one quarter of all trading periods over the previous 12 months.

The faster uptake has been propelled by the construction of new projects, such as the 413 MW first stage of the Goyder South wind farm – the biggest in the state – and a slew of new big battery projects, including the Blyth battery that will help Goyder South supply “baseload renewables” to the giant Olympic Dam copper mine.

he reliability of the grid, and its ability to export and import more electricity when needed, is being enhanced by the construction of the new transmission link to NSW, Project Energy Connect, which should be operating in 2026 and will reduce the number of times and the volume of constraints on local wind and solar output.

South Australia will need a lot more wind and solar to meet its hydrogen targets, both for the state government owned 250 MW electrolyser to be built in Whyalla, and the 200 MW green hydrogen power plant being built alongside it to help meet peak demand.

A number of major companies are also looking at hydrogen production facilities in the Port Bonython precinct which will also require considerable amounts of new wind and solar capacity.

The state government says that under its plan, excess renewable energy generated from large-scale wind and solar farms will be stored and utilised to provide a consistent output of supply, providing additional grid stability for homes and businesses around the state.

“Wind and solar power is far cheaper than electricity generated by gas, so an increased proportion of renewables will push prices lower,” the government said in its statement.

“This will unlock the potential for mining, processing, and manufacturing to produce carbon-neutral goods for the world’s markets – driving SA prosperity.” It said this synergy between investment and renewables is already being borne out by the contract to supply BHP’s Olympic Dam mine.

The government stated noted that AEMO generation forecasts show electricity demand in South Australia economy growing from around 16,000 gigawatt-hours this financial year to nearly 23,000 gigawatt-hours in 2030-31.

“The bulk of the extra energy will be provided by renewables, with supply so plentiful that South Australia will be consistently a net exporter to the eastern states,” it says.

“The Malinauskas Government is confident our Hydrogen and Renewable Energy Act and positive attitude to investors will spur more renewables projects.

“At the same time, we have observed coal-fired power stations interstate becoming increasingly less reliable and owners making decisions to close them early.

“This will create demand from interstate for our clean, reliable power.”

South Australia’s push into high levels of wind and solar has delivered some notable outcomes. In 2023, there were 289 days in which renewables met all of the consumption demand of the entire state for part of the day, and rooftop solar alone has met all state demand on occasions, most recently on December 31.

“There is no doubt we will get to net 100 per cent renewables before 2030,” energy minister Tom Koutsantonis said a statement.

“So we are doubling down on our ambition. We want to get there even sooner.

“The global price shocks of 2022 proved that we must strengthen our own supply and resilience to external pressures.“

https://reneweconomy.com.au/south-austr ... t-to-2027/

[Nort]

Great! Can't wait until the point when it's not just net >100% renewables, but there is basically never any need to fallback on imported fossil power.

[PeFe]

Great! Can't wait until the point when it's not just net >100% renewables, but there is basically never any need to fallback on imported fossil power.

South Australia does not "rely" on imported fossil fuel.....we have our own.....there is still quite a bit of gas capacity........But when SA is short of renewables there is a choice between SA gas (extremely expensive) or look for something cheaper on the interconnector. Usually this Victorian coal or wind, or Tasmanian hydro or wind and very very occasionally NSW coal.

Discovering individual sources for power that is being imported is near impossible. I have researched this on the internet and was unable to pinpoint exact sources.

So I am taking a guess and this is how it works......if SA is importing 100mw from Victoria and at the time the Victorian power production is split 70% coal and 30% wind then that is the mixture wea are getting.

So if anyone ever says "SA relies totally on fossil fuel imports" you can happily answer 'No thats not true"

[abc]

Great! Can't wait until the point when it's not just net >100% renewables, but there is basically never any need to fallback on imported fossil power.

South Australia does not "rely" on imported fossil fuel.....we have our own.....there is still quite a bit of gas capacity........But when SA is short of renewables there is a choice between SA gas (extremely expensive) or look for something cheaper on the interconnector. Usually this Victorian coal or wind, or Tasmanian hydro or wind and very very occasionally NSW coal.

Discovering individual sources for power that is being imported is near impossible. I have researched this on the internet and was unable to pinpoint exact sources.

So I am taking a guess and this is how it works......if SA is importing 100mw from Victoria and at the time the Victorian power production is split 70% coal and 30% wind then that is the mixture wea are getting.

So if anyone ever says "SA relies totally on fossil fuel imports" you can happily answer 'No thats not true"

its deliberately obfuscated for political reasons

[PD2/20]

Great! Can't wait until the point when it's not just net >100% renewables, but there is basically never any need to fallback on imported fossil power.

South Australia does not "rely" on imported fossil fuel.....we have our own.....there is still quite a bit of gas capacity........But when SA is short of renewables there is a choice between SA gas (extremely expensive) or look for something cheaper on the interconnector. Usually this Victorian coal or wind, or Tasmanian hydro or wind and very very occasionally NSW coal.

Discovering individual sources for power that is being imported is near impossible. I have researched this on the internet and was unable to pinpoint exact sources.

So I am taking a guess and this is how it works......if SA is importing 100mw from Victoria and at the time the Victorian power production is split 70% coal and 30% wind then that is the mixture wea are getting.

So if anyone ever says "SA relies totally on fossil fuel imports" you can happily answer 'No thats not true"

There are four main classes of fossil fuel generation in SA in increasing order of cost:

• combined cycle gas turbines (Pelican Point, Osborne)
• steam turbines (Torrens Island)
• open cycle GT (eg Quarantine, Dry Creek, Ladbroke, Hallett, Mintaro) and gas reciprocating Barker Inlet)
• diesel (Angaston, Port Stanvac, Lonsdale)

A few minutes ago, the price across all 5 states was ~$65/MWh. VIC had 80% brown coal 20% renewables. SA had ~380 MW gas generation (PPt, Osb, TIPS). This indicates that this SA gas generation was around the same cost as the VIC generation.

Costs in SA generally rise when the OCGTs and diesel stations come online.

I've noticed that when SA imports increase in evening peak, VIC hydro often ramps up. Thus it could be argued that we are getting hydro power.

Electrons from different generation sources are indistinguishable and share a common transmission network. The focus of the NEM is to dispatch sufficient supply to meet the current demands both within states and and interstate.

[Jaymz]

I guess the question from myself and most South Australians who have limited knowledge on how the whole electricity generation/supply/retail system works, is when are we going to actually see our power bills reduce? We have been sold this narrative that renewable were supposed to lead to cheaper prices, but this simply hasn't been the case as yet

I'm talking about the people that go through a regular retailer, not the argument about buying solar and/or battery setup and the pay off period for that.

[abc]

I guess the question from myself and most South Australians who have limited knowledge on how the whole electricity generation/supply/retail system works, is when are we going to actually see our power bills reduce? We have been sold this narrative that renewable were supposed to lead to cheaper prices, but this simply hasn't been the case as yet

I'm talking about the people that go through a regular retailer, not the argument about buying solar and/or battery setup and the pay off period for that.

This is of course rhetorical, because we both know this will never happen.

[rubberman]

I guess the question from myself and most South Australians who have limited knowledge on how the whole electricity generation/supply/retail system works, is when are we going to actually see our power bills reduce? We have been sold this narrative that renewable were supposed to lead to cheaper prices, but this simply hasn't been the case as yet

I'm talking about the people that go through a regular retailer, not the argument about buying solar and/or battery setup and the pay off period for that.

Renewables have led to cheaper prices - for retailers. You might like to inquire as to why those cheaper prices haven't been passed on.

Renewables have led to cheaper prices for people who believe in renewables enough to install solar panels and batteries.

So, it's really only people who cannot, or will not install solar and batteries who are paying higher prices.

Of those who cannot install solar, there are two sorts of people. Those who trusted the private sector to pass on savings, and those who did not, but had no choice.

I really only have sympathy for those who had no choice inthe matter. Everyone else can either save money by installing solar and batteries, or they bet on private companies passing savings along to their suckers , er, I mean customers.

[Jaymz]

I guess the question from myself and most South Australians who have limited knowledge on how the whole electricity generation/supply/retail system works, is when are we going to actually see our power bills reduce? We have been sold this narrative that renewable were supposed to lead to cheaper prices, but this simply hasn't been the case as yet

I'm talking about the people that go through a regular retailer, not the argument about buying solar and/or battery setup and the pay off period for that.

Renewables have led to cheaper prices - for retailers. You might like to inquire as to why those cheaper prices haven't been passed on.

Renewables have led to cheaper prices for people who believe in renewables enough to install solar panes and batteries

That's all well and good, like I said, not interested in the whole solar/battery argument.

South Australia is by far the leader on the mainland when it comes to renewable generation..... so I'm confused how we continue to have the highest retail prices. At worst, you'd think we'd at least move back to the middle of the pack.

So is it the Govt. pricing watchdog is not doing its job properly, or even worse does it have absolutely no power over this?

[mattblack]

Additional to that, we are still reliant on gas. Gas companies are still beholden to their shareholders to make profits. They now have a greatly reduced market share so the cost needs to be astronomical historically to still active those profits. With additional renewable power, batteries and with a state gov owned hydrogen plant coming into the market, depending on how it is structured, these prices will have to come down. Still need to use existing infrastructure though so the cost will certainly not br zero.

[abc]

I guess the question from myself and most South Australians who have limited knowledge on how the whole electricity generation/supply/retail system works, is when are we going to actually see our power bills reduce? We have been sold this narrative that renewable were supposed to lead to cheaper prices, but this simply hasn't been the case as yet

I'm talking about the people that go through a regular retailer, not the argument about buying solar and/or battery setup and the pay off period for that.

Renewables have led to cheaper prices - for retailers. You might like to inquire as to why those cheaper prices haven't been passed on.

Renewables have led to cheaper prices for people who believe in renewables enough to install solar panels and batteries.

So, it's really only people who cannot, or will not install solar and batteries who are paying higher prices.

Of those who cannot install solar, there are two sorts of people. Those who trusted the private sector to pass on savings, and those who did not, but had no choice.

I really only have sympathy for those who had no choice inthe matter. Everyone else can either save money by installing solar and batteries, or they bet on private companies passing savings along to their suckers , er, I mean customers.

you do realise there's a huge cost outlay to install solar panels and they don't last forever, so that cost outlay will be required several times in a lifetime... did you factor that in?

did you also factor in subsidies?

[rev]

I guess the question from myself and most South Australians who have limited knowledge on how the whole electricity generation/supply/retail system works, is when are we going to actually see our power bills reduce? We have been sold this narrative that renewable were supposed to lead to cheaper prices, but this simply hasn't been the case as yet

I'm talking about the people that go through a regular retailer, not the argument about buying solar and/or battery setup and the pay off period for that.

Renewables have led to cheaper prices - for retailers. You might like to inquire as to why those cheaper prices haven't been passed on.

Renewables have led to cheaper prices for people who believe in renewables enough to install solar panels and batteries.

So, it's really only people who cannot, or will not install solar and batteries who are paying higher prices.

Of those who cannot install solar, there are two sorts of people. Those who trusted the private sector to pass on savings, and those who did not, but had no choice.

I really only have sympathy for those who had no choice inthe matter. Everyone else can either save money by installing solar and batteries, or they bet on private companies passing savings along to their suckers , er, I mean customers.

Who can afford to drop $20,000+ for a decent, proper solar & battery setup?
In what reality do you live, where the majority of households can afford that? Don't feel any urgency to answer that, we already know you live in the same fairytale land that our politicians live in.

Sure lots of households have taken advantage of the rebates on solar panels. Solar panels alone wont make a difference, as many have found out. Most still get whopper bills in the mail.


Everyone can save money by installing solar & batteries, he says as if everyone has a lazy 20 grand sitting around.

We're in the midst of a cost of living crisis that hasn't been seen for generations in this country, with a vast majority of Australian's living pay cheque to ;ay cheque with very little savings to get them by, and this bloke thinks people are flush with cash to throw at solar panels & batteries.


If the government has money to throw at foreign corporations to build renewable projects in SA, then they have money to throw at South Australian households who want to have solar & battery setups installed to make them self sufficient.

At some stage, even you will have to start asking why the government has money and time for foreign corporations, but isn't willing to help South Australian households become self sufficient with electricity production/supply/usage.
I'd say I'm shocked the Liberals haven't come up with some policy like that, but then they're even worse then the Labor party.

[rubberman]

I guess the question from myself and most South Australians who have limited knowledge on how the whole electricity generation/supply/retail system works, is when are we going to actually see our power bills reduce? We have been sold this narrative that renewable were supposed to lead to cheaper prices, but this simply hasn't been the case as yet

I'm talking about the people that go through a regular retailer, not the argument about buying solar and/or battery setup and the pay off period for that.

Renewables have led to cheaper prices - for retailers. You might like to inquire as to why those cheaper prices haven't been passed on.

Renewables have led to cheaper prices for people who believe in renewables enough to install solar panels and batteries.

So, it's really only people who cannot, or will not install solar and batteries who are paying higher prices.

Of those who cannot install solar, there are two sorts of people. Those who trusted the private sector to pass on savings, and those who did not, but had no choice.

I really only have sympathy for those who had no choice inthe matter. Everyone else can either save money by installing solar and batteries, or they bet on private companies passing savings along to their suckers , er, I mean customers.

you do realise there's a huge cost outlay to install solar panels and they don't last forever, so that cost outlay will be required several times in a lifetime... did you factor that in?

did you also factor in subsidies?

Firstly, you should do yourself a favour and check it out yourself.

A 6.7kWH set of panels with a 10kWH battery can set you back $13-15k. Warranties for 10 years are out there, Tesla for example.

That's $1300-1500/year for the guaranteed life of the battery. Max. If you get more than ten years, it's less. If you sell power back to the grid, it's less again. If you want to hold on to your ideas that solar is somehow increasing prices, and couldn't be bothered to do the math, then at least you are spending your own money.

The SA subsidy is $3000....for batteries.

So, even if there weren't a subsidy, that would add $300/year to the costs above and still be cheaper than paying retail prices. However, the battery actually saves SA money because batteries reduce the amount of transmission infrastructure spending by SA Power Networks. While we are talking about subsidies, however, we could talk about the $11bn annual subsidies for fossil fuels. No? Thought not.

Point being, that however you slice and dice it, if you can have a solar and battery system, and choose not to, you are losing big bucks. By all means, people are entitled to spend their own money however they want, but then to blame renewables because they didn't do their due diligence is a little silly.