News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

[PeFe]

Solar panels alone wont make a difference, as many have found out. Most still get whopper bills in the mail.

Absolute rubbish......3.5 million households have rooftop solar...average payback time 7-9 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... olar-power

[abc]

Renewables have led to cheaper prices - for retailers. You might like to inquire as to why those cheaper prices haven't been passed on.

Renewables have led to cheaper prices for people who believe in renewables enough to install solar panels and batteries.

So, it's really only people who cannot, or will not install solar and batteries who are paying higher prices.

Of those who cannot install solar, there are two sorts of people. Those who trusted the private sector to pass on savings, and those who did not, but had no choice.

I really only have sympathy for those who had no choice inthe matter. Everyone else can either save money by installing solar and batteries, or they bet on private companies passing savings along to their suckers , er, I mean customers.

you do realise there's a huge cost outlay to install solar panels and they don't last forever, so that cost outlay will be required several times in a lifetime... did you factor that in?

did you also factor in subsidies?

Firstly, you should do yourself a favour and check it out yourself.

A 6.7kWH set of panels with a 10kWH battery can set you back $13-15k. Warranties for 10 years are out there, Tesla for example.

That's $1300-1500/year for the guaranteed life of the battery. Max. If you get more than ten years, it's less. If you sell power back to the grid, it's less again. If you want to hold on to your ideas that solar is somehow increasing prices, and couldn't be bothered to do the math, then at least you are spending your own money.

The SA subsidy is $3000....for batteries.

So, even if there weren't a subsidy, that would add $300/year to the costs above and still be cheaper than paying retail prices. However, the battery actually saves SA money because batteries reduce the amount of transmission infrastructure spending by SA Power Networks. While we are talking about subsidies, however, we could talk about the $11bn annual subsidies for fossil fuels. No? Thought not.

Point being, that however you slice and dice it, if you can have a solar and battery system, and choose not to, you are losing big bucks. By all means, people are entitled to spend their own money however they want, but then to blame renewables because they didn't do their due diligence is a little silly.

That's your narrative not mine.
Solar is a scam, however prices across the board are increasing for a variety of reasons, and they're all related to decisions our government has made over the past decade or so.

Once again, you're a zealot, so there's no getting through to you on this as you're bogged down in minutia and cant see the bigger picture here.

[abc]

Solar panels alone wont make a difference, as many have found out. Most still get whopper bills in the mail.

Absolute rubbish......3.5 million households have rooftop solar...average payback time 7-9 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... olar-power

do you?

average payback time 7-9 years.

[rubberman]

you do realise there's a huge cost outlay to install solar panels and they don't last forever, so that cost outlay will be required several times in a lifetime... did you factor that in?

did you also factor in subsidies?

Firstly, you should do yourself a favour and check it out yourself.

A 6.7kWH set of panels with a 10kWH battery can set you back $13-15k. Warranties for 10 years are out there, Tesla for example.

That's $1300-1500/year for the guaranteed life of the battery. Max. If you get more than ten years, it's less. If you sell power back to the grid, it's less again. If you want to hold on to your ideas that solar is somehow increasing prices, and couldn't be bothered to do the math, then at least you are spending your own money.

The SA subsidy is $3000....for batteries.

So, even if there weren't a subsidy, that would add $300/year to the costs above and still be cheaper than paying retail prices. However, the battery actually saves SA money because batteries reduce the amount of transmission infrastructure spending by SA Power Networks. While we are talking about subsidies, however, we could talk about the $11bn annual subsidies for fossil fuels. No? Thought not.

Point being, that however you slice and dice it, if you can have a solar and battery system, and choose not to, you are losing big bucks. By all means, people are entitled to spend their own money however they want, but then to blame renewables because they didn't do their due diligence is a little silly.

That's your narrative not mine.
Solar is a scam, however prices across the board are increasing for a variety of reasons, and they're all related to decisions our government has made over the past decade or so.

Once again, you're a zealot, so there's no getting through to you on this as you're bogged down in minutia and cant see the bigger picture here.

Lol. If you want to pay thousands of dollars more than you need to. Be my guest!

It's called "cutting off your nose to spite your face".

You only need grade 2 arithmetic, and the ability to google some prices. Lolol.

[rev]

You only need grade 2 arithmetic, and the ability to google some prices. Lolol.

It's funny you keep trying to insult people and call them stupid with comments like this, but you wont even provide the numbers your self.

[rev]

Solar panels alone wont make a difference, as many have found out. Most still get whopper bills in the mail.

Absolute rubbish......3.5 million households have rooftop solar...average payback time 7-9 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... olar-power

This state is investing more and more in wind and solar yes? Therefore more and more of our electricity is coming from these sources, yes?

At the same time, our electricity is increasing in cost at the end of the line, that is, to consumers. While we are being told that these investments will bring down our electricity prices. Since that hasn't happened, there's been excuses, such as "gas it to blame", "aemo sets the prices", or whatever other straws you people have tried clutching at.

My electricity provider actually states that they provide 100% renewable electricity to me. Yet my bills, continue to increase.
Even with a concerted effort to conserve electricity usage.

[PeFe]

Here is yesterday's wholesale spot market for electricity prices in South Australia.

Rooftop solar is again the cheapest power source in the SA grid (as it is every day right across this country)

If Australia totally abandoned rooftop solar and replaced it with any other source (even wind) the price of electricity would rise.

Rooftop solar remains extremely cheap because it is not allowed to participate in the market, you are on a low fixed price contract.

For example when there is a heatwave and in the
late afternoon power prices skyrocket due to demand (maximum allowed is $16 per kWh) people with solar panels on their roofs still get their standard 6 cents per kwh (or whatever their standard rate is)

In WA for example rooftop solar pays 10 cents per kwh in the peak periods but only 2 cents per kwh in the middle of the day......1970's power prices.

No government of any persuasion will block the rooftop solar boom....it is just too good of deal for the country.

[rev]

Expected standard climate leftist response, spin and more spin.

On the plus side for you and rubberman, you'd both make great politicians by todays standards of what we see.

[Nort]

Expected standard climate leftist response, spin and more spin.

On the plus side for you and rubberman, you'd both make great politicians by todays standards of what we see.

*yawn*

For the millionth time, it's ok for people to say no to fossil fuels and people who would make the world a worse place.

[mattblack]

Expected standard climate leftist response, spin and more spin.

On the plus side for you and rubberman, you'd both make great politicians by todays standards of what we see.

Not really sure why facts offend you so much? It's not leftist. It's not spin. It's not alternate facts (which is not a thing). It's just fact. AEMO and the NEM are not some leftist plot against conservatives.

If you have evidence to back up your counter argument then please post it otherwise this megaphone diplomacy is a little wearing.

[rev]

Expected standard climate leftist response, spin and more spin.

On the plus side for you and rubberman, you'd both make great politicians by todays standards of what we see.

*yawn*

For the millionth time, it's ok for people to say no to fossil fuels and people who would make the world a worse place.

It's amazing that I still live rent free in your head that you feel you still need to respond to my posts when I have you on ignore and don't talk to you.
I'll make an exception this time.

You often respond to my posts telling me its ok for others to have an opinion, when I'm sharing my opinion.
See the contradiction? Probably not, you never were too bright.

Keep the stalking and harassment up.

[rev]

Expected standard climate leftist response, spin and more spin.

On the plus side for you and rubberman, you'd both make great politicians by todays standards of what we see.

Not really sure why facts offend you so much? It's not leftist. It's not spin. It's not alternate facts (which is not a thing). It's just fact. AEMO and the NEM are not some leftist plot against conservatives.

If you have evidence to back up your counter argument then please post it otherwise this megaphone diplomacy is a little wearing.

What was posted doesn't address what I've said does it? Therefore it's spin in response to valid concerns that the majority of Australians have.
Never said AEMO or NEM were some leftist plot.

If I have evidence? I do actually, I'm not going to post it because I'm not going to reveal personal information from correspondence addressed to me personally from my energy retailer, but I'm sure you can find the information online your selves and verify it.

Engie claims to have exited coal, and is focused on renewables. That is batteries, wind and solar, which they specify.

So if renewables are meant to make prices cheaper, and this retailer has exited the non-renewables which is claimed is pushing prices up, why are the bills they send out going up, and up?

W aren't being fucked over as consumers in this country.
Wouldn't be surprised if we had a thread about supermarkets that these same people would go in to bat for Coles & Woolies.

[rubberman]

Expected standard climate leftist response, spin and more spin.

On the plus side for you and rubberman, you'd both make great politicians by todays standards of what we see.

Not really sure why facts offend you so much? It's not leftist. It's not spin. It's not alternate facts (which is not a thing). It's just fact. AEMO and the NEM are not some leftist plot against conservatives.

If you have evidence to back up your counter argument then please post it otherwise this megaphone diplomacy is a little wearing.

What was posted doesn't address what I've said does it? Therefore it's spin in response to valid concerns that the majority of Australians have.
Never said AEMO or NEM were some leftist plot.

If I have evidence? I do actually, I'm not going to post it because I'm not going to reveal personal information from correspondence addressed to me personally from my energy retailer, but I'm sure you can find the information online your selves and verify it.

Engie claims to have exited coal, and is focused on renewables. That is batteries, wind and solar, which they specify.

So if renewables are meant to make prices cheaper, and this retailer has exited the non-renewables which is claimed is pushing prices up, why are the bills they send out going up, and up?

W aren't being fucked over as consumers in this country.
Wouldn't be surprised if we had a thread about supermarkets that these same people would go in to bat for Coles & Woolies.

Prices are going up because you choose the most expensive alternatives. That's it. You can install rooftop solar and batteries and pay less. Or buy from retailers who have no incentive to pass on savings.

If you choose the more expensive option, your choice, and your responsibility. Why are you complaining about your choices. Who put the gun to your head saying you have to choose to pay more?

[Llessur2002]

To be fair there are valid questions here - if prices are going up (which they generally have been markedly in recent years) then what's the cause? Is it directly related to a rise in wholesale prices?

If so, what's cause of that? Global events, the transition to non-coal based fuels, something else, or a complicated mix of factors?

If it's the transition to renewables causing higher bills in Australia then are the price spikes short-term in nature and related to investment in the networks required to support and optimise the grid for the newer power sources? Will wholesale prices eventually fall sharply once this transition period is over and we'll all look back and realise it was worth the short-term pain or have renewables simply not provided the cost savings promised/expected?

On the other hand, if hikes in the retail price of power cannot be directly and proportionately correlated with the cost of wholesale electricity then are we being gouged in the same way as we are by Colesworths?

I'm very supportive of the transition to renewables and am lucky enough to have 13kw of solar on my roof which has reduced my bills to essentially nothing during summer - despite very liberal use of our ducted AC. However, a lot of people do not have the resources to fund even a 6kw solar system, let alone a battery, so I don't think it's fair to assume that everyone has a viable path to the bill reductions I've seen.

Rev has a point - the move to renewables at a grid level has absolutely been touted as being a precursor to much cheaper power bills and yet the opposite has happened during the timeframe that much of this activity has occured. I don't remember being told that lower prices would be dependent on uptake of solar and battery technology at an individual level so either:

a) The savings were a lie/based on flawed analysis
b) Something's changed
c) Electricity providers are price gouging

Surely power prices would be a massive driver of inflation across the board. If there's price gouging going on then I'm much rather the government clamps down on that than homeowners like me doing all of the heavy lifting through higher interest rates.

I'm no expert on the national or global electricity markets so I think it's an interesting discussion to have.

[rev]

To be fair there are valid questions here - if prices are going up (which they generally have been markedly in recent years) then what's the cause? Is it directly related to a rise in wholesale prices?

If so, what's cause of that? Global events, the transition to non-coal based fuels, something else, or a complicated mix of factors?

I don't think we can really blame global events. We have an abundance of gas and coal in this country. Now if the trade agreements our governments have setup for the supply of gas and coal abroad are impacting prices here, which I believe with gas may actually be the case (it is said we are basically subsidising cheap gas to China and Japan - they get our resource cheaper, we pay more), then pointing the finger at governments is valid.

If it's the transition to renewables causing higher bills in Australia then are the price spikes short-term in nature and related to investment in the networks required to support and optimise the grid for the newer power sources? Will wholesale prices eventually fall sharply once this transition period is over and we'll all look back and realise it was worth the short-term pain or have renewables simply not provided the cost savings promised/expected?

The huge cost for that transition, the establishing of these new supplies from solar and wind, and the battery storage, will have to be paid by someone. That someone is the consumer.
When our politicians are out there telling us that these renewable energy projects will bring down our prices, they aren't being honest.

On the other hand, if hikes in the retail price of power cannot be directly and proportionately correlated with the cost of wholesale electricity then are we being gouged in the same way as we are by Colesworths?

There's a section on my electricity bill that says that you could* save if you change to a different plan. It also says that they are required by the Australian Energy Regulator to tell you this and put it on your bill.
If they weren't required to do that, would they do it? Of course not.

I'm very supportive of the transition to renewables and am lucky enough to have 13kw of solar on my roof which has reduced my bills to essentially nothing during summer - despite very liberal use of our ducted AC. However, a lot of people do not have the resources to fund even a 6kw solar system, let alone a battery, so I don't think it's fair to assume that everyone has a viable path to the bill reductions I've seen.

I think some people read my posts and think I'm dead against renewables or whatever, which I'm not. Most people are not in a position to be able to afford a decent solar and battery setup, which should be obvious when we're 1) in a cost of living crisis and 2) its a well established fact that the majority in this country live week to week. Apparently though it's their own fault for choosing the more expensive option?

I'm all for renewables and new technologies in general. Maybe they don't care about their elected officials bullshitting them all the time, but I do. Our taxes pay their salaries and afford them the generous benefits and completely unfair pension system they have for them selves, the very least the mugs could do is give us some honesty and transparency once in a while.

Rev has a point - the move to renewables at a grid level has absolutely been touted as being a precursor to much cheaper power bills and yet the opposite has happened during the timeframe that much of this activity has happened. I don't remember being lower prices would be dependent on uptake of solar and battery technology at an individual level so either:

a) That was a lie/flawed analysis
b) Something's changed
c) Electricity providers are price gouging

Surely power prices would be a massive driver of inflation across the board. If there's price gouging going on then I'm much rather the government clamps down on that than homeowners like me doing all of the heavy lifting through higher interest rates.

I'm no expert on the national or global electricity markets so I think it's an interesting discussion to have.

It's not only that, it's that we then get told that gas is to blame, or coal. Or some war on the other side of the world is impacting the sun and wind in Australia or some such nonsense i dunno anymore.
But my retailer specifically states they are supplying 100% renewable energy, from wind, solar and battery storage.
Yet my bills still went up some 30% year on year.

This doesn't make sense, when we get told renewables will bring down our prices.

If I am being told by the government that that will happen, and my retailer is telling me that they are supplying me with power sourced from renewable generation, why are they increasing my power bills by 30%?

What does coal and gas have to do with it when my electricity is, as my retailer has told me, not coming from those sources?

The whole thing stinks to high heaven. We're being rorted, some of us can see it, some cant.