News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

[rubberman]

Show us your detailed costings then. Not just cherry picked and wishywashy conversions and screenshots.
Show us proof. Hard proof. Not from some blatantly biased source, a neutral source.




Lets just pretend this isn't in the article eh? What would this guy know eh?

How relevant is nuclear power when one party, the ALP, won't build one, and the other party, the Coalition, can't build one?

Further, going by projects round the world, nuclear plants of any size take about twenty years from start of planning to start up. That's 2044 IF we started now. If anyone thinks that the present coal fired plants have twenty years' life left in them, I have the rights to the Jervois Street Bridge to sell them.

So, just to put things in perspective, to be of the slightest use at all, you would have to either:

A). Convince the ALP to change policy and build it in half the time other countries can do it, or

B). Convince yourself that the Coalition, which bungled the NBN, submarines, Murray Darling Basin Plan, Snowy Mk2, Inland Rail, and couldn't even build rorted car parks could build a nuclear plant in half the time other countries can do it.

Now, I would by no means suspend any pleasure of yours, but if you seriously wish to waste your time on a noble, but fruitless quest, then pursuit of nuclear energy in Australia to be useful in time to take over from coal plants will certainly serve you well as an exercise in futility.

To have had a chance at commissioning a nuclear plant in Australia, the government would have had to start in 2015. I hope you aren't pinning your hopes on the party that was in power at the time, and could have tried then...but didn't.

As for the costs etc you referred to. The market is working as we speak. Batteries are being built, solar and wind plants are being commissioned, people are installing rooftop solar. All the while, the market window for coal and nuclear is closing. It's happening whether people like it or not, and the longer it goes on, the more difficult it becomes for coal or nuclear to find finance. You have demanded figures, and that's good. However, you know who really demand figures, too? It's the flinty hearted bankers that the likes of AGL and Alinta need to convince, and it's those flint hearted bankers who are not seeing coal and nuclear as worth financing. It's only either dictatorships or governments wishing to risk taxpayer's money putting up the cash. So, if flint hearted bankers are not willing to underwrite coal and nuclear, and it looks like taxpayers are on the hook, well it seems that it's up to coal and nuke proponents to put up the figures. Independent figures.

The only thing renewables have accomplished is killing Australian industry and burdening households with some of the highest bills in the world

Maybe if we build another 150,000,000 wind turbines electricity bills might go down 1¢ for a single year before skyrocketing another 500%

There's not the slightest shred of evidence that this is true. Pure imagination that would put Walt Disney to shame. Meanwhile, in the real world, nobody is investing in coal unless government guarantees are involved.

[Spurdo]

There's not the slightest shred of evidence that this is true. Pure imagination that would put Walt Disney to shame. Meanwhile, in the real world, nobody is investing in coal unless government guarantees are involved.

lol, I don’t need to imagine it, all I gotta do is look at my power bill and it’s right there.

As for the industry part, pollies have been promising this influx of “green jobs” that will rebuild Australian manufacturing since about 2008, and yet all we see is more and more factory closures. But then again, who in their right mind is gonna build a refinery or a smelter in a country with some of the highest power prices in the world

[rubberman]

There's not the slightest shred of evidence that this is true. Pure imagination that would put Walt Disney to shame. Meanwhile, in the real world, nobody is investing in coal unless government guarantees are involved.

lol, I don’t need to imagine it, all I gotta do is look at my power bill and it’s right there.

As for the industry part, pollies have been promising this influx of “green jobs” that will rebuild Australian manufacturing since about 2008, and yet all we see is more and more factory closures. But then again, who in their right mind is gonna build a refinery or a smelter in a country with some of the highest power prices in the world

Your bill is high, but apparently high gas prices and decrepit coal plants with huge repair bills have nothing to do with it? Right.

Oh, and if you had rooftop solar, your bill wouldn't be high at all.

By all means, pay for extortionate gas prices, failing coal plants, refuse to use cheap solar, and then complain about high power bills. You do you.

[Spurdo]

Your bill is high, but apparently high gas prices and decrepit coal plants with huge repair bills have nothing to do with it? Right.

Considering it pretty much started kicking off around the time we started replacing power stations with wind/solar farms, then yeah, most probably

Also, if it’s all coals fault, then how come prices shot up after port augusta shut down? If coal is pushing prices up, then surely that would’ve brought them down? Same with when they shut down half of Torrens island

[abc]

gas is keeping your aircon running tonight

I missed the part where all the manufacturers were moving their factories to SA to take advantage of the cheap 'green' energy...

[Algernon]

There's not the slightest shred of evidence that this is true. Pure imagination that would put Walt Disney to shame. Meanwhile, in the real world, nobody is investing in coal unless government guarantees are involved.

lol, I don’t need to imagine it, all I gotta do is look at my power bill and it’s right there.

As for the industry part, pollies have been promising this influx of “green jobs” that will rebuild Australian manufacturing since about 2008, and yet all we see is more and more factory closures. But then again, who in their right mind is gonna build a refinery or a smelter in a country with some of the highest power prices in the world

The country I live in has a current breakdown of about 40% nuclear, 40% coal, 10% gas and 10% solar/wind. Our building is refurbished with a B energy rating (A-G) scale.

The energy/heat component of our utilities comes to about aud400 per month. For a 60sqm apartment.

Australia the highest bills in the world? Bullshit

[rubberman]

Your bill is high, but apparently high gas prices and decrepit coal plants with huge repair bills have nothing to do with it? Right.

Considering it pretty much started kicking off around the time we started replacing power stations with wind/solar farms, then yeah, most probably

Also, if it’s all coals fault, then how come prices shot up after port augusta shut down? If coal is pushing prices up, then surely that would’ve brought them down? Same with when they shut down half of Torrens island

When Port Augusta shut down, a huge chunk of supply was removed from the market. Economics 101 says if you remove supply from a market, then the price must go up. Now, please remind me who privatised power in SA, and exposed consumers to that particular market reality?

Further, it was a private company that decided it wasn't economic to replace those coal plants. Like I have said several times, private companies, driven by real economics, cannot make a case for coal. That is the reality. No matter how hard you wish it to be different, company boards, faced with present costs and future trends cannot make a case for coal.

[rubberman]

gas is keeping your aircon running tonight

I missed the part where all the manufacturers were moving their factories to SA to take advantage of the cheap 'green' energy...

You missed the part where we have a National Energy Market.

You missed the part where generation is only part of the bill.

You missed the part where it's now no longer 1950, and Sir Thomas Playford controlled energy prices through government ownership of ETSA. Remind me. Who was it that dismantled Playford's achievement?

See, it wasn't renewables that boosted power prices in SA, it was the dismantling of Playford's legacy.

[Spurdo]

You missed the part where we have a National Energy Market.

You missed the part where generation is only part of the bill.

You missed the part where it's now no longer 1950, and Sir Thomas Playford controlled energy prices through government ownership of ETSA. Remind me. Who was it that dismantled Playford's achievement?

See, it wasn't renewables that boosted power prices in SA, it was the dismantling of Playford's legacy.

Do you mind dialling down the whole “smug snarky douchebag” tone? It’s actually getting incredibly grating

[rubberman]

You missed the part where we have a National Energy Market.

You missed the part where generation is only part of the bill.

You missed the part where it's now no longer 1950, and Sir Thomas Playford controlled energy prices through government ownership of ETSA. Remind me. Who was it that dismantled Playford's achievement?

See, it wasn't renewables that boosted power prices in SA, it was the dismantling of Playford's legacy.

Do you mind dialling down the whole “smug snarky douchebag” tone? It’s actually getting incredibly grating

It is grating, isn't it. I'm happy to dial it to whatever the poster I've replied to has set it. In this case it was abc, who got a serve of his own medicine.

As for the smug part, I have to admit there's almost no way to avoid sounding condescending sometimes. However, I am happy to take advice. As an example, it is possible for someone to install a solar system, and reduce cost considerably, yet we get that same person complaining about renewables and their apparent high cost. How would you suggest to that person that they get a system that would reduce their bills, without sounding smug?

I for one, find it grating to hear people continually complain about high prices, when they could instead do something about it.

[Spurdo]

It is grating, isn't it. I'm happy to dial it to whatever the poster I've replied to has set it. In this case it was abc, who got a serve of his own medicine.

As for the smug part, I have to admit there's almost no way to avoid sounding condescending sometimes. However, I am happy to take advice. As an example, it is possible for someone to install a solar system, and reduce cost considerably, yet we get that same person complaining about renewables and their apparent high cost. How would you suggest to that person that they get a system that would reduce their bills, without sounding smug?

I for one, find it grating to hear people continually complain about high prices, when they could instead do something about it.

Yes, I’m sure all those households struggling to make ends meet have more than enough money to go out and spend $10,000+ on solar and batteries

[rubberman]

It is grating, isn't it. I'm happy to dial it to whatever the poster I've replied to has set it. In this case it was abc, who got a serve of his own medicine.

As for the smug part, I have to admit there's almost no way to avoid sounding condescending sometimes. However, I am happy to take advice. As an example, it is possible for someone to install a solar system, and reduce cost considerably, yet we get that same person complaining about renewables and their apparent high cost. How would you suggest to that person that they get a system that would reduce their bills, without sounding smug?

I for one, find it grating to hear people continually complain about high prices, when they could instead do something about it.

Yes, I’m sure all those households struggling to make ends meet have more than enough money to go out and spend $10,000+ on solar and batteries

And the biggest single reason for that is house prices, not renewables. Rather than blaming renewables, why not suggest a policy, such as in NSW, where people can get loans from the government over the life of the battery?

Much of what you complain was the direct result of poor government policy. You mentioned loss of industry. That was a result of a Federal Government decision, not renewables. The closure of the Port Augusta station was a direct result of the poor decision to sell ETSA, and price rises were a direct result of the loss of generating capacity. If anything, renewables saved South Australia. Despite all this, after the Weatherill government bought a very modest amount of backup power capacity (nothing to do with renewables), what was the first thing the incoming Liberal Government did? Sold it. Further, I have no intrinsic aversion to nuclear. However, what is clear is that on any numbers presented, it's neither economic, nor able to be deployed in a time frame that's realistic. So, what we are seeing in Canberra is NOT a genuine desire to address energy issues, rather a simple and cynical bit of political theatre. All I see is political marketing: party A has a policy, so party B has to be different. No substance at all, and no hope of making it happen. But don't worry about that, in ten years time of faffing around with nuclear unsuccessfully, they'll blame renewables...again.

Much of the renewables hate I see is often a smokescreen for avoiding responsibility for very poor government decisions.

[abc]

You missed the part where we have a National Energy Market.

You missed the part where generation is only part of the bill.

You missed the part where it's now no longer 1950, and Sir Thomas Playford controlled energy prices through government ownership of ETSA. Remind me. Who was it that dismantled Playford's achievement?

See, it wasn't renewables that boosted power prices in SA, it was the dismantling of Playford's legacy.

Do you mind dialling down the whole “smug snarky douchebag” tone? It’s actually getting incredibly grating

It is grating, isn't it. I'm happy to dial it to whatever the poster I've replied to has set it. In this case it was abc, who got a serve of his own medicine.

As for the smug part, I have to admit there's almost no way to avoid sounding condescending sometimes. However, I am happy to take advice. As an example, it is possible for someone to install a solar system, and reduce cost considerably, yet we get that same person complaining about renewables and their apparent high cost. How would you suggest to that person that they get a system that would reduce their bills, without sounding smug?

I for one, find it grating to hear people continually complain about high prices, when they could instead do something about it.

once again, remind me of all the factories moving to SA because of the cheap cost of energy...

[abc]

How relevant is nuclear power when one party, the ALP, won't build one, and the other party, the Coalition, can't build one?

Further, going by projects round the world, nuclear plants of any size take about twenty years from start of planning to start up. That's 2044 IF we started now. If anyone thinks that the present coal fired plants have twenty years' life left in them, I have the rights to the Jervois Street Bridge to sell them.

So, just to put things in perspective, to be of the slightest use at all, you would have to either:

A). Convince the ALP to change policy and build it in half the time other countries can do it, or

B). Convince yourself that the Coalition, which bungled the NBN, submarines, Murray Darling Basin Plan, Snowy Mk2, Inland Rail, and couldn't even build rorted car parks could build a nuclear plant in half the time other countries can do it.

Now, I would by no means suspend any pleasure of yours, but if you seriously wish to waste your time on a noble, but fruitless quest, then pursuit of nuclear energy in Australia to be useful in time to take over from coal plants will certainly serve you well as an exercise in futility.

To have had a chance at commissioning a nuclear plant in Australia, the government would have had to start in 2015. I hope you aren't pinning your hopes on the party that was in power at the time, and could have tried then...but didn't.

As for the costs etc you referred to. The market is working as we speak. Batteries are being built, solar and wind plants are being commissioned, people are installing rooftop solar. All the while, the market window for coal and nuclear is closing. It's happening whether people like it or not, and the longer it goes on, the more difficult it becomes for coal or nuclear to find finance. You have demanded figures, and that's good. However, you know who really demand figures, too? It's the flinty hearted bankers that the likes of AGL and Alinta need to convince, and it's those flint hearted bankers who are not seeing coal and nuclear as worth financing. It's only either dictatorships or governments wishing to risk taxpayer's money putting up the cash. So, if flint hearted bankers are not willing to underwrite coal and nuclear, and it looks like taxpayers are on the hook, well it seems that it's up to coal and nuke proponents to put up the figures. Independent figures.

The only thing renewables have accomplished is killing Australian industry and burdening households with some of the highest bills in the world

Maybe if we build another 150,000,000 wind turbines electricity bills might go down 1¢ for a single year before skyrocketing another 500%

There's not the slightest shred of evidence that this is true. Pure imagination that would put Walt Disney to shame. Meanwhile, in the real world, nobody is investing in coal unless government guarantees are involved.

'nobody is investing in coal'

[abc]

Would this be the Coalition that bungled the NBN, the Murray Darling Basin Plan, submarines, Robodebt, Inland Rail, Snowy Mk2, Aged care, gave $40bn to companies that didn't need it during Covid, bungled the vaccine rollout? That Coalition? The idea that a political party that couldn't even build a set of rorted car parks could build a nuclear plant is hilarious. Is that Newscorp reporter on hallucinogens? I mean, not to mention that the Coalition made no move to do anything with coal or nukes in its 9 years in office, nor from 2018-2022 when Libs were in power in SA and Canberra.

What a load of unbelievable codswallop.

oh boy here we go again
another ALP stooge parroting party propaganda

Lol. So, in your reality, the Coalition actually succeeded? Fibre to the node worked? The French subs are built? We actually got extra water from the Murray Darling Basin Plan? Snowy Mk2 is now commissioned for $2bn? The Inland Rail project is finished on time and budget? Mkay.

Why do you assume I'm a fan of the coalition?

"bungled the vaccine rollout" this is my favourite ALP talking point which booster are you up to?