News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

[abc]

There's no hope of communicating. They aren't prepared to argue in good faith. However, it is important to make sure that absurd assertions are refuted so that the unwary reader isn't conned.

This sounds like you're running propaganda. Maybe try communicating like a normal human instead of pushing an agenda.

Lol. Apparently belief in the laws of supply and demand in a market is "pushing an agenda".

Closing the Port Augusta power stations reduced supply. The laws of supply and demand say pressure is on prices to go up.

Introduction of renewables increased supply. The laws of supply and demand say pressure is on prices to go down.

That's it. A fact of life in a market. But believe whatever you will. I just think you are pushing it up hill if you think that belief in market forces is "pushing an agenda".

I'll let others judge that.

Introduction of renewables increased cost of supply... there's a reason why no where else in the world has gone all in on renewables... SA government have been conned by people who make money selling renewable infrastructure.

The proof is in the economy... when South Australia had a healthy manufacturing economy, it had cheap energy and little trouble with unions... now it has the most expensive energy in Australia, which as a nation now has expensive energy its little wonder we're in a post industrial society. Look at all the factories that have shut down. Now everything is imported from China, whose population now have a higher rate of home ownership than Australians.

[Algernon]

Ok boomer

[rev]

But believe whatever you will. I just think you are pushing it up hill if you think that belief in market forces is "pushing an agenda".

Lets see if prices do actually come down this time.
Odd neither you nor pefe are willing to take a small (non-financial) wager on whether prices will come down this time.
Something simple, keep this fun, instead of all this hostility.

We are basically in agreement fundamentally are we not? We're both in favour of renewable energy?
Only difference is I don't believe what the government/regulator/corporations promises us, because their promises have rarely if ever come true. So my position is, why should this time be any different?

[Nort]

there's a reason why no where else in the world has gone all in on renewables...

Sure, and the reason in this case is that you made that "fact" up entirely.

The proof is in the economy... when South Australia had a healthy manufacturing economy, it had cheap energy and little trouble with unions... now it has the most expensive energy in Australia, which as a nation now has expensive energy its little wonder we're in a post industrial society. Look at all the factories that have shut down. Now everything is imported from China, whose population now have a higher rate of home ownership than Australians.

Australian manufacturing was doomed by a combination of factors, but the absolute biggest ones were a high Australian dollar, combined with a neo-liberal conservative government that was actively hostile to any heavy industry not involved in construction, mining, or agriculture.

[SBD]

There's no hope of communicating. They aren't prepared to argue in good faith. However, it is important to make sure that absurd assertions are refuted so that the unwary reader isn't conned.

This sounds like you're running propaganda. Maybe try communicating like a normal human instead of pushing an agenda.

Lol. Apparently belief in the laws of supply and demand in a market is "pushing an agenda".

Closing the Port Augusta power stations reduced supply. The laws of supply and demand say pressure is on prices to go up.

Introduction of renewables increased supply. The laws of supply and demand say pressure is on prices to go down.

That's it. A fact of life in a market. But believe whatever you will. I just think you are pushing it up hill if you think that belief in market forces is "pushing an agenda".

I'll let others judge that.

I was about to say it's unclear whether it's "renewables" or just "new supply" on the basis that the large fossil fuel powerstations are all older.

Then I realised that since wind farms have started to take over in South Australia, we've also had new fossil fuel power stations: Temporary Generation North and South were built and operated deliberately to increase supply on high-demand days, then dismantled, and reassembled as Snapper Point and Bolivar operated as more normal peaking plants, but also firming their operators' wind farm output. Barker Inlet is also operated to firm AGL's wind farm output. So we have recent liquid fuel power plants to compare the effects.

...but the measurable effect is on the wholesale spot price. We can't see the price effect of firming (as distinct from peaking), and what we experience is a retail price which reflects anticipated future average wholesale market costs. Smart meters are a necessary first step towards influencing the retail market (including customers) to manage costs by manipulating demand.

[PeFe]

The proof is in the economy... when South Australia had a healthy manufacturing economy, it had cheap energy and little trouble with unions... now it has the most expensive energy in Australia, which as a nation now has expensive energy its little wonder we're in a post industrial society. Look at all the factories that have shut down. Now everything is imported from China, whose population now have a higher rate of home ownership than Australians.

South Australia deindustrialised during the 70's 80's and 90's. The source of the power during this period was coal and gas.

According to this Age article from 2002 South Australia had the highest electricity prices in Australia. This predates the introduction of renewables 2003 (first wind farm).

https://www.theage.com.au/national/vict ... dukkr.html

And another explainer from Roalnd Braekels at Solar Quotes.

https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/sou ... ty-prices/

[abc]

Ok boomer

such an embarrassing comment

[abc]

The proof is in the economy... when South Australia had a healthy manufacturing economy, it had cheap energy and little trouble with unions... now it has the most expensive energy in Australia, which as a nation now has expensive energy its little wonder we're in a post industrial society. Look at all the factories that have shut down. Now everything is imported from China, whose population now have a higher rate of home ownership than Australians.

South Australia deindustrialised during the 70's 80's and 90's. The source of the power during this period was coal and gas.

According to this Age article from 2002 South Australia had the highest electricity prices in Australia. This predates the introduction of renewables 2003 (first wind farm).

https://www.theage.com.au/national/vict ... dukkr.html

And another explainer from Roalnd Braekels at Solar Quotes.

https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/sou ... ty-prices/

2002 electricity prices were far lower than today Australia wide...the reason SA deindustrialised is because other states dealt with their unions

now the whole country is deindustrialised

your factoid makes no sense in the context of this discussion

who the hell is Roland Braekel?

[mattblack]

Channel 7 is generally pro Labour

South Australia has the highest energy prices is a fact.

Source??

As you have said not including it is not good etiquette and may not be meeting your legal obligations- Chanel 7 not included.

The source is Channel 7. I posted the link.
Regardless, I can post facts without attributing to any source. Its not like I'm copying and pasting a press release and passing it off as my own work.

*Sigh*

No reputable source then.

Thanks boomer.

[SBD]

there's a reason why no where else in the world has gone all in on renewables...

Sure, and the reason in this case is that you made that "fact" up entirely.

The proof is in the economy... when South Australia had a healthy manufacturing economy, it had cheap energy and little trouble with unions... now it has the most expensive energy in Australia, which as a nation now has expensive energy its little wonder we're in a post industrial society. Look at all the factories that have shut down. Now everything is imported from China, whose population now have a higher rate of home ownership than Australians.

Australian manufacturing was doomed by a combination of factors, but the absolute biggest ones were a high Australian dollar, combined with a neo-liberal conservative government that was actively hostile to any heavy industry not involved in construction, mining, or agriculture.

Perhaps we should "blame" the Foreign Investment Review Board and its predecessors over a century or more. I don't know what the drivers were for a high Australian dollar. A lot of the heavy manufacturing that left Australia was local arms of foreign-owned multinationals, either established as remote branches (eg Ford) or bought decades earlier (Holden sold to GM in the 1930s). When the shipping cost falls below the (total) manufacturing cost for a small market, it makes economic sense to close the plant. We didn't complain when Holden closed its New Zealand factory and exported from Australia. We didn't complain when other states' Holden factories consolidated to Elizabeth. Then the same thing happened here.

I think there's still one solar panel manufacturer in Australia, there have been a couple of attempts at wind turbine components, but they haven't stuck. Wilson Transformer Company has been building transformers in Australia for 90 years. There are still a couple of aluminium and iron smelters, an oil refinery or two, but most were too small for their owners to think they were worth keeping.

To develop and maintain new Australian heavy industry, it needs to be Australian-owned, with a large enough Australian market to be profitable, with exports as cream, not necessity. Would enough Australians buy an Australian-designed and developed electric car to make it worth the effort? I doubt it.

[abc]

there's a reason why no where else in the world has gone all in on renewables...

Sure, and the reason in this case is that you made that "fact" up entirely.

The proof is in the economy... when South Australia had a healthy manufacturing economy, it had cheap energy and little trouble with unions... now it has the most expensive energy in Australia, which as a nation now has expensive energy its little wonder we're in a post industrial society. Look at all the factories that have shut down. Now everything is imported from China, whose population now have a higher rate of home ownership than Australians.

Australian manufacturing was doomed by a combination of factors, but the absolute biggest ones were a high Australian dollar, combined with a neo-liberal conservative government that was actively hostile to any heavy industry not involved in construction, mining, or agriculture.

Perhaps we should "blame" the Foreign Investment Review Board and its predecessors over a century or more. I don't know what the drivers were for a high Australian dollar. A lot of the heavy manufacturing that left Australia was local arms of foreign-owned multinationals, either established as remote branches (eg Ford) or bought decades earlier (Holden sold to GM in the 1930s). When the shipping cost falls below the (total) manufacturing cost for a small market, it makes economic sense to close the plant. We didn't complain when Holden closed its New Zealand factory and exported from Australia. We didn't complain when other states' Holden factories consolidated to Elizabeth. Then the same thing happened here.

I think there's still one solar panel manufacturer in Australia, there have been a couple of attempts at wind turbine components, but they haven't stuck. Wilson Transformer Company has been building transformers in Australia for 90 years. There are still a couple of aluminium and iron smelters, an oil refinery or two, but most were too small for their owners to think they were worth keeping.

To develop and maintain new Australian heavy industry, it needs to be Australian-owned, with a large enough Australian market to be profitable, with exports as cream, not necessity. Would enough Australians buy an Australian-designed and developed electric car to make it worth the effort? I doubt it.

Foreign companies manufacture where they can get cheap energy and/or cheap labour. Australian owned companies would do and do the same.

Watch Germany's manufacturing fall off a cliff now they've had their source of cheap energy literally blown up by their allies.

[Algernon]

The boomers

Ran up national debts to pay for themselves
Bought multiple properties for next to nothing and demand rent from the people paying off their national debt AND private debt
Fucked the environment and no qualms leaving the mess to their kids
If they went to university, they didn't pay for it
Tell you all about the world wars but didn't actually fight in one
Tell everyone paying for them that they're dumb and lazy
Actively stand in the way of anyone, anything, any idea remedying the fucking mess they made

Historians are going to be looking back at this generation and asking how the rest of us lost 2/3 of our economic potential bankrolling it all. They'll probably get at most a smirk for those who seemed to think it was all the fault of.............. technology that converts the limitless potential of the sun and wind into energy........................

[abc]

The boomers

Ran up national debts to pay for themselves
Bought multiple properties for next to nothing and demand rent from the people paying off their national debt AND private debt
Fucked the environment and no qualms leaving the mess to their kids
If they went to university, they didn't pay for it
Tell you all about the world wars but didn't actually fight in one
Tell everyone paying for them that they're dumb and lazy
Actively stand in the way of anyone, anything, any idea remedying the fucking mess they made

Historians are going to be looking back at this generation and asking how the rest of us lost 2/3 of our economic potential bankrolling it all. They'll probably get at most a smirk for those who seemed to think it was all the fault of.............. technology that converts the limitless potential of the sun and wind into energy........................

This is what you remind me of...

[Algernon]

Good.

[abc]

Good.

you really do belong in the EU, run by the unelected bureaucrat and daughter of a national socialist... please don't come back