SA Economy

[rev]

What happened a quarter of a century isn't the issue. What party did do/didn't do what in the last quarter century isn't the issue either.

The issue is what is happening TODAY, and what is being done and not being done TODAY, and what effect it is having and will have on the state as a whole that is the issue.
Not every thread has to turn into a pissing match between Liberal/Labor trolls.

And this is where our politicians fail. They focus on the past, playing the blame game, because they know their dumb ass minions will follow suit.
They don't focus on the issues at hand, and what can be done to fix them.

The electorate, most of which is made up of every day ordinary people not pricks who think it's a working family's fault for having high power prices because they cant afford solar & battery setups, don't give a toss about what party did what a quarter of a century ago.
What people care about is TODAY. What is happening today, what is affecting them today, and what is going to be done to fix what is affecting them today and help them.

What would you do?

What I wouldn't be doing is ruling any option out. Everything would be on the table.

[rubberman]

What happened a quarter of a century isn't the issue. What party did do/didn't do what in the last quarter century isn't the issue either.

The issue is what is happening TODAY, and what is being done and not being done TODAY, and what effect it is having and will have on the state as a whole that is the issue.
Not every thread has to turn into a pissing match between Liberal/Labor trolls.

And this is where our politicians fail. They focus on the past, playing the blame game, because they know their dumb ass minions will follow suit.
They don't focus on the issues at hand, and what can be done to fix them.

The electorate, most of which is made up of every day ordinary people not pricks who think it's a working family's fault for having high power prices because they cant afford solar & battery setups, don't give a toss about what party did what a quarter of a century ago.
What people care about is TODAY. What is happening today, what is affecting them today, and what is going to be done to fix what is affecting them today and help them.

What would you do?

What I wouldn't be doing is ruling any option out. Everything would be on the table.

SA needs to focus on things that might actually work as its first priority. Other technologies in development such as nuclear should be watched to see if they become practical and economic. Those are second priority because they can be given a higher priority if and when they are proven. For example, Small Modular Reactors are not economic at the moment, nor at the rate of development, likely to become economic in the next ten years. Thus, if they do become economic, we have plenty of notice to change laws and move them up the priority list. If, on the other hand, they fail to live up to the sales pitch, we haven't wasted time...that we really don't have.

Here's the Energy Council opinion: they're way too expensive. Installing them as is would cripple the SA economy.

https://www.energycouncil.com.au/analys ... ag-report/

[rev]

Small businesses struggling to pay electricity bills as government steams ahead with transition to renewables
Small Aussie businesses, including a gym home to Olympic gold medallists, are in disbelief at sky-high electricity bills - forcing many to question their future. See why.

John Rolfe
@publicdefender
2 min read
September 14, 2024 - 4:30AM
National News Network

Small businesses smashed by big electricity price hikes are questioning whether the transition to renewables is being rushed, as the federal Opposition steps up its fight against early closure of coal-fired power plants.

Over the past two years, small business electricity bills have surged by more than 30 per cent cumulatively in NSW and South Australia, as well as most of Victoria and Queensland, analysis shows.

In some areas, costs are 50 per cent higher than they were in 2022, according to the analysis for leading advocacy group Energy Consumers Australia.

ECA chief executive Brendan French said power companies and governments should provide more help.

“While energy retailers are obliged to offer hardship assistance to residential customers, there is no obligation to do the same for small businesses, although some certainly do. This is a significant problem, and one that needs considerable attention,” Dr French said.

“We welcomed the help provided for small businesses in this year’s federal budget, (but) we’d like to see governments provide tailored supports for small businesses.”

Other research for the Council of Small Business Organisations of Australia reveals the price of power is the top concern for owners.

“It’s not just an issue, it’s the issue,” said Cosboa chief executive Luke Achterstraat, adding that many operators are “fearful that things will get harder before they get easier.”

South Australian bakery owner Victor Wearne said his power prices had gone up by 25 per cent in six months.

Until recently, the pies and cakes he makes at Glenelg’s Sugar ’n Spice And All Things consisted of entirely Australian ingredients.

“Now I am just starting to go to fats and oils that are made in Malaysia because they are only half the price,” Mr Wearne said. “We don’t want to do it but we have to.”

At Atmosphere Fitness in western Sydney, the cost of power has doubled since last year. The high-end Penrith facility, used by the likes of Olympic gold medallists Jessica and Noémie Fox, is now paying $27,000 a month.

“I couldn’t believe it when the bill came through,” Atmosphere’s manager Deb Vitols said. “I couldn’t sleep for three nights.”

Ms Vitols said she believed governments hadn’t “set us up for success” in the energy transition.

“I think they have pulled the trigger too quickly” on station shutdowns, Ms Vitols said.

Mr Wearne said it appeared that governments had not “looked into all the things that have to be put in place first” before switching off gas and coal.

Federal Opposition energy spokesman Ted O’Brien said price rises were due to the Albanese government hastening the demise of fossil-fuel-fired plants.

“You do not prematurely close your 24-7 baseload power stations,” Mr O’Brien said.

Energy Minister Chris Bowen said Labor hadn’t brought forward closures.

“Australians are paying the price for a decade of inaction under the former Coalition government that left us with an out-of-date energy system that is vulnerable to international price spikes and reliant on increasingly unreliable, expensive, ageing coal plants,” Mr Bowen said.

“The Coalition’s plan to extend coal plants beyond closure dates set by plant owners is only a recipe for expensive blackouts.”

Mr Bowen added that the industry regulator had found power prices for small businesses in NSW, Victoria, southeast Queensland and SA would fall in 2024-25, aided by ongoing bill relief from the Albanese government.

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/subscrib ... nt-1-SCORE

It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better, and it wont be getting any better under a federal Labor government with an incompetent buffoon in the top job whose surrounded him self with psychopathic ideological c***s who will continue to fight for their ideology blindly while their own eco chamber burns to the ground around them and refuse to see any other POV.

[Waewick]

Small businesses struggling to pay electricity bills as government steams ahead with transition to renewables
Small Aussie businesses, including a gym home to Olympic gold medallists, are in disbelief at sky-high electricity bills - forcing many to question their future. See why.

John Rolfe
@publicdefender
2 min read
September 14, 2024 - 4:30AM
National News Network

Small businesses smashed by big electricity price hikes are questioning whether the transition to renewables is being rushed, as the federal Opposition steps up its fight against early closure of coal-fired power plants.

Over the past two years, small business electricity bills have surged by more than 30 per cent cumulatively in NSW and South Australia, as well as most of Victoria and Queensland, analysis shows.

In some areas, costs are 50 per cent higher than they were in 2022, according to the analysis for leading advocacy group Energy Consumers Australia.

ECA chief executive Brendan French said power companies and governments should provide more help.

“While energy retailers are obliged to offer hardship assistance to residential customers, there is no obligation to do the same for small businesses, although some certainly do. This is a significant problem, and one that needs considerable attention,” Dr French said.

“We welcomed the help provided for small businesses in this year’s federal budget, (but) we’d like to see governments provide tailored supports for small businesses.”

Other research for the Council of Small Business Organisations of Australia reveals the price of power is the top concern for owners.

“It’s not just an issue, it’s the issue,” said Cosboa chief executive Luke Achterstraat, adding that many operators are “fearful that things will get harder before they get easier.”

South Australian bakery owner Victor Wearne said his power prices had gone up by 25 per cent in six months.

Until recently, the pies and cakes he makes at Glenelg’s Sugar ’n Spice And All Things consisted of entirely Australian ingredients.

“Now I am just starting to go to fats and oils that are made in Malaysia because they are only half the price,” Mr Wearne said. “We don’t want to do it but we have to.”

At Atmosphere Fitness in western Sydney, the cost of power has doubled since last year. The high-end Penrith facility, used by the likes of Olympic gold medallists Jessica and Noémie Fox, is now paying $27,000 a month.

“I couldn’t believe it when the bill came through,” Atmosphere’s manager Deb Vitols said. “I couldn’t sleep for three nights.”

Ms Vitols said she believed governments hadn’t “set us up for success” in the energy transition.

“I think they have pulled the trigger too quickly” on station shutdowns, Ms Vitols said.

Mr Wearne said it appeared that governments had not “looked into all the things that have to be put in place first” before switching off gas and coal.

Federal Opposition energy spokesman Ted O’Brien said price rises were due to the Albanese government hastening the demise of fossil-fuel-fired plants.

“You do not prematurely close your 24-7 baseload power stations,” Mr O’Brien said.

Energy Minister Chris Bowen said Labor hadn’t brought forward closures.

“Australians are paying the price for a decade of inaction under the former Coalition government that left us with an out-of-date energy system that is vulnerable to international price spikes and reliant on increasingly unreliable, expensive, ageing coal plants,” Mr Bowen said.

“The Coalition’s plan to extend coal plants beyond closure dates set by plant owners is only a recipe for expensive blackouts.”

Mr Bowen added that the industry regulator had found power prices for small businesses in NSW, Victoria, southeast Queensland and SA would fall in 2024-25, aided by ongoing bill relief from the Albanese government.

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/subscrib ... nt-1-SCORE

It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better, and it wont be getting any better under a federal Labor government with an incompetent buffoon in the top job whose surrounded him self with psychopathic ideological c***s who will continue to fight for their ideology blindly while their own eco chamber burns to the ground around them and refuse to see any other POV.

what's your POV and how will it make prices cheaper now or in the short term?

Just having a look, power prices negative again

https://aemo.com.au/en/energy-systems/e ... hboard-nem


Interesting to hear what POV improves that. I assume its related to retail or the supply chain?

[SBD]

I find the market process that sets the spot price quite bizarre, that the last bidder sets the price for everyone, and can bid a ridiculous price for a small contribution.

I presume this market system developed to ensure there is never a shortage, but the possibility of huge wholesale price spikes means that wholesale customers and retailers have to be prepared to pay for that spike.

Maybe large commercial customers can negotiate directly with generators to supply their demand, as the factory/processing plant load can be predicted well, and something can be turned off for a couple of hours if they do happen to outstrip the contract. For the rest of the wholesale customers, we need a system without price spikes. Presumably someone in AEMO or the "peaking generator" operators knows what are the drivers for silly prices, but it doesn't get talked about.

[SouthAussie94]

Small businesses struggling to pay electricity bills as government steams ahead with transition to renewables
Small Aussie businesses, including a gym home to Olympic gold medallists, are in disbelief at sky-high electricity bills - forcing many to question their future. See why.

John Rolfe
@publicdefender
2 min read
September 14, 2024 - 4:30AM
National News Network

Small businesses smashed by big electricity price hikes are questioning whether the transition to renewables is being rushed, as the federal Opposition steps up its fight against early closure of coal-fired power plants.

Over the past two years, small business electricity bills have surged by more than 30 per cent cumulatively in NSW and South Australia, as well as most of Victoria and Queensland, analysis shows.

In some areas, costs are 50 per cent higher than they were in 2022, according to the analysis for leading advocacy group Energy Consumers Australia.

ECA chief executive Brendan French said power companies and governments should provide more help.

“While energy retailers are obliged to offer hardship assistance to residential customers, there is no obligation to do the same for small businesses, although some certainly do. This is a significant problem, and one that needs considerable attention,” Dr French said.

“We welcomed the help provided for small businesses in this year’s federal budget, (but) we’d like to see governments provide tailored supports for small businesses.”

Other research for the Council of Small Business Organisations of Australia reveals the price of power is the top concern for owners.

“It’s not just an issue, it’s the issue,” said Cosboa chief executive Luke Achterstraat, adding that many operators are “fearful that things will get harder before they get easier.”

South Australian bakery owner Victor Wearne said his power prices had gone up by 25 per cent in six months.

Until recently, the pies and cakes he makes at Glenelg’s Sugar ’n Spice And All Things consisted of entirely Australian ingredients.

“Now I am just starting to go to fats and oils that are made in Malaysia because they are only half the price,” Mr Wearne said. “We don’t want to do it but we have to.”

At Atmosphere Fitness in western Sydney, the cost of power has doubled since last year. The high-end Penrith facility, used by the likes of Olympic gold medallists Jessica and Noémie Fox, is now paying $27,000 a month.

“I couldn’t believe it when the bill came through,” Atmosphere’s manager Deb Vitols said. “I couldn’t sleep for three nights.”

Ms Vitols said she believed governments hadn’t “set us up for success” in the energy transition.

“I think they have pulled the trigger too quickly” on station shutdowns, Ms Vitols said.

Mr Wearne said it appeared that governments had not “looked into all the things that have to be put in place first” before switching off gas and coal.

Federal Opposition energy spokesman Ted O’Brien said price rises were due to the Albanese government hastening the demise of fossil-fuel-fired plants.

“You do not prematurely close your 24-7 baseload power stations,” Mr O’Brien said.

Energy Minister Chris Bowen said Labor hadn’t brought forward closures.

“Australians are paying the price for a decade of inaction under the former Coalition government that left us with an out-of-date energy system that is vulnerable to international price spikes and reliant on increasingly unreliable, expensive, ageing coal plants,” Mr Bowen said.

“The Coalition’s plan to extend coal plants beyond closure dates set by plant owners is only a recipe for expensive blackouts.”

Mr Bowen added that the industry regulator had found power prices for small businesses in NSW, Victoria, southeast Queensland and SA would fall in 2024-25, aided by ongoing bill relief from the Albanese government.

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/subscrib ... nt-1-SCORE

It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better, and it wont be getting any better under a federal Labor government with an incompetent buffoon in the top job whose surrounded him self with psychopathic ideological c***s who will continue to fight for their ideology blindly while their own eco chamber burns to the ground around them and refuse to see any other POV.

Yet more blah blah, predictable. Our economy could completely implode and the troll will still be babbling on about Liberal this Liberal that stuck in his little ideological bubble. F# me this would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.

Again, what would you do? As you have said yourself, simply playing partisan politics is bullshit.

[Waewick]

I find the market process that sets the spot price quite bizarre, that the last bidder sets the price for everyone, and can bid a ridiculous price for a small contribution.

I presume this market system developed to ensure there is never a shortage, but the possibility of huge wholesale price spikes means that wholesale customers and retailers have to be prepared to pay for that spike.

Maybe large commercial customers can negotiate directly with generators to supply their demand, as the factory/processing plant load can be predicted well, and something can be turned off for a couple of hours if they do happen to outstrip the contract. For the rest of the wholesale customers, we need a system without price spikes. Presumably someone in AEMO or the "peaking generator" operators knows what are the drivers for silly prices, but it doesn't get talked about.

I don't think it was developed with an eye to the future, i believe it was established in '98.

Not sure they knew what was coming.

[SBD]

I find the market process that sets the spot price quite bizarre, that the last bidder sets the price for everyone, and can bid a ridiculous price for a small contribution.

I presume this market system developed to ensure there is never a shortage, but the possibility of huge wholesale price spikes means that wholesale customers and retailers have to be prepared to pay for that spike.

Maybe large commercial customers can negotiate directly with generators to supply their demand, as the factory/processing plant load can be predicted well, and something can be turned off for a couple of hours if they do happen to outstrip the contract. For the rest of the wholesale customers, we need a system without price spikes. Presumably someone in AEMO or the "peaking generator" operators knows what are the drivers for silly prices, but it doesn't get talked about.

I don't think it was developed with an eye to the future, i believe it was established in '98.

Not sure they knew what was coming.

I wonder if there's a better way to run an energy market, and if so how to transition to it.

Vertically integrated operators might avoid the market, but introduce monopoly concerns instead.

[rubberman]

Small businesses struggling to pay electricity bills as government steams ahead with transition to renewables
Small Aussie businesses, including a gym home to Olympic gold medallists, are in disbelief at sky-high electricity bills - forcing many to question their future. See why.

John Rolfe
@publicdefender
2 min read
September 14, 2024 - 4:30AM
National News Network

Small businesses smashed by big electricity price hikes are questioning whether the transition to renewables is being rushed, as the federal Opposition steps up its fight against early closure of coal-fired power plants.

Over the past two years, small business electricity bills have surged by more than 30 per cent cumulatively in NSW and South Australia, as well as most of Victoria and Queensland, analysis shows.

In some areas, costs are 50 per cent higher than they were in 2022, according to the analysis for leading advocacy group Energy Consumers Australia.

ECA chief executive Brendan French said power companies and governments should provide more help.

“While energy retailers are obliged to offer hardship assistance to residential customers, there is no obligation to do the same for small businesses, although some certainly do. This is a significant problem, and one that needs considerable attention,” Dr French said.

“We welcomed the help provided for small businesses in this year’s federal budget, (but) we’d like to see governments provide tailored supports for small businesses.”

Other research for the Council of Small Business Organisations of Australia reveals the price of power is the top concern for owners.

“It’s not just an issue, it’s the issue,” said Cosboa chief executive Luke Achterstraat, adding that many operators are “fearful that things will get harder before they get easier.”

South Australian bakery owner Victor Wearne said his power prices had gone up by 25 per cent in six months.

Until recently, the pies and cakes he makes at Glenelg’s Sugar ’n Spice And All Things consisted of entirely Australian ingredients.

“Now I am just starting to go to fats and oils that are made in Malaysia because they are only half the price,” Mr Wearne said. “We don’t want to do it but we have to.”

At Atmosphere Fitness in western Sydney, the cost of power has doubled since last year. The high-end Penrith facility, used by the likes of Olympic gold medallists Jessica and Noémie Fox, is now paying $27,000 a month.

“I couldn’t believe it when the bill came through,” Atmosphere’s manager Deb Vitols said. “I couldn’t sleep for three nights.”

Ms Vitols said she believed governments hadn’t “set us up for success” in the energy transition.

“I think they have pulled the trigger too quickly” on station shutdowns, Ms Vitols said.

Mr Wearne said it appeared that governments had not “looked into all the things that have to be put in place first” before switching off gas and coal.

Federal Opposition energy spokesman Ted O’Brien said price rises were due to the Albanese government hastening the demise of fossil-fuel-fired plants.

“You do not prematurely close your 24-7 baseload power stations,” Mr O’Brien said.

Energy Minister Chris Bowen said Labor hadn’t brought forward closures.

“Australians are paying the price for a decade of inaction under the former Coalition government that left us with an out-of-date energy system that is vulnerable to international price spikes and reliant on increasingly unreliable, expensive, ageing coal plants,” Mr Bowen said.

“The Coalition’s plan to extend coal plants beyond closure dates set by plant owners is only a recipe for expensive blackouts.”

Mr Bowen added that the industry regulator had found power prices for small businesses in NSW, Victoria, southeast Queensland and SA would fall in 2024-25, aided by ongoing bill relief from the Albanese government.

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/subscrib ... nt-1-SCORE

It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better, and it wont be getting any better under a federal Labor government with an incompetent buffoon in the top job whose surrounded him self with psychopathic ideological c***s who will continue to fight for their ideology blindly while their own eco chamber burns to the ground around them and refuse to see any other POV.

what's your POV and how will it make prices cheaper now or in the short term?

Just having a look, power prices negative again

https://aemo.com.au/en/energy-systems/e ... hboard-nem


Interesting to hear what POV improves that. I assume its related to retail or the supply chain?

I once pointed out that rooftop solar and batteries could provide cheaper electricity than that provided by most retailers. That demonstrated that renewables were not the cause of high prices. After all, provision of energy at industrial scales has to be cheaper cheaper than individual households doing it. So, if an individual household can do it cheaper than the retailers' offers, using solar and batteries, why can't AGL, Lumo, Origin?

I haven't heard any rational response to that from the anti-renewables crowd. Nor do I expect one.

It really boils down to whether retailers, gas suppliers, or network operators are price gouging.

It may be that retailers are taking advantage of the fact that some people cannot fit solar panels ( eg in apartments). Or will not for ideological reasons. In the first case, what can be done? It's worth investigating retailer margins. In the second case, though, if people choose to pay higher prices, that's their right. However, they shouldn't be allowed to get away with "My electricity bill is too high. Waaaah! Outrage! It's renewables fault!"

If it's gas prices, then given Australia is a huge gas exporter, we need to have a gas reservation policy. But again, watch the ideologues come out of the woodwork against that...and then blame renewables because high gas prices drive electricity bills high.

Network operator rules also need to be examined, but they generally are already, so I am not sure here.

[SBD]

AGL is one of the largest operators of coal and gas power stations, and a shareholder in one of the largest renewable energy operators (Tilt Renewables). AGL seems to be planning closure of its big coal and gas (Torrens Island in SA) power stations in favour of more wind farms, batteries, and small peaking fossil fuel (Barker Inlet) power stations to top up the gaps. It's not doing that because coal power stations are cheaper to operate.

[Waewick]

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/subscrib ... nt-1-SCORE

It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better, and it wont be getting any better under a federal Labor government with an incompetent buffoon in the top job whose surrounded him self with psychopathic ideological c***s who will continue to fight for their ideology blindly while their own eco chamber burns to the ground around them and refuse to see any other POV.

what's your POV and how will it make prices cheaper now or in the short term?

Just having a look, power prices negative again

https://aemo.com.au/en/energy-systems/e ... hboard-nem


Interesting to hear what POV improves that. I assume its related to retail or the supply chain?

I once pointed out that rooftop solar and batteries could provide cheaper electricity than that provided by most retailers. That demonstrated that renewables were not the cause of high prices. After all, provision of energy at industrial scales has to be cheaper cheaper than individual households doing it. So, if an individual household can do it cheaper than the retailers' offers, using solar and batteries, why can't AGL, Lumo, Origin?

I haven't heard any rational response to that from the anti-renewables crowd. Nor do I expect one.

It really boils down to whether retailers, gas suppliers, or network operators are price gouging.

It may be that retailers are taking advantage of the fact that some people cannot fit solar panels ( eg in apartments). Or will not for ideological reasons. In the first case, what can be done? It's worth investigating retailer margins. In the second case, though, if people choose to pay higher prices, that's their right. However, they shouldn't be allowed to get away with "My electricity bill is too high. Waaaah! Outrage! It's renewables fault!"

If it's gas prices, then given Australia is a huge gas exporter, we need to have a gas reservation policy. But again, watch the ideologues come out of the woodwork against that...and then blame renewables because high gas prices drive electricity bills high.

Network operator rules also need to be examined, but they generally are already, so I am not sure here.

Yeah i agree, you get the feeling we are trying to make the NEM work even if, quite obviously it failed.

I remember the 'gas led recovery ' garbage we were fed art the end of COVID.

It would have been an okay idea if we'd had a mechanism to keep domestic prices cheap, but instead we tied ourselves to international markets and now apparently maybe importing gas to fix a shortage.

I still find it odd that rusted on LNP voters blame 'ideology ' for high prices, completely ignoring it was the LNPs ideology that got us here.

Can't imagine how much worse it would have been if the market didn't ignore the LNP and invest in renewables

[rev]

Again, what would you do? As you have said yourself, simply playing partisan politics is bullshit.

I'm not your elected representative. Try asking them and then report back to us here with what they've said.

[SBD]

Again, what would you do? As you have said yourself, simply playing partisan politics is bullshit.

I'm not your elected representative. Try asking them and then report back to us here with what they've said.

The current elected representatives have made their choices. The question for discussion here is whether there is a better way than the path they are on.

I don't have access to the market information at the detail to identify which generator(s) are price makers at any moment (5 minutes) and what could remove the peaks.

I'm not sure the current market system contains an incentive to introduce a new large-scale generator which always undercuts the price setter. The market pays a premium for supplying into a tight market, even if it's only tight because other generators didn't bid.

[abc]

AGL is one of the largest operators of coal and gas power stations, and a shareholder in one of the largest renewable energy operators (Tilt Renewables). AGL seems to be planning closure of its big coal and gas (Torrens Island in SA) power stations in favour of more wind farms, batteries, and small peaking fossil fuel (Barker Inlet) power stations to top up the gaps. It's not doing that because coal power stations are cheaper to operate.

its doing that because of the Paris accord and associated incentives

its all artificial

[Waewick]

Again, what would you do? As you have said yourself, simply playing partisan politics is bullshit.

I'm not your elected representative. Try asking them and then report back to us here with what they've said.

The current elected representatives have made their choices. The question for discussion here is whether there is a better way than the path they are on.

I don't have access to the market information at the detail to identify which generator(s) are price makers at any moment (5 minutes) and what could remove the peaks.

I'm not sure the current market system contains an incentive to introduce a new large-scale generator which always undercuts the price setter. The market pays a premium for supplying into a tight market, even if it's only tight because other generators didn't bid.

It's not just the elected members, who in have in the past actively pushed against the market, its the Market, the international market.

The hassle I think is the people rallying against Renewables never had to actually think about their power bil and to be fair, in the absence of a consistent message, have filled it with misinformation or conspiracy which was provided far easier and with less thinking.

I'm sure once this transition is complete some will find something else to rally against, we still have to convince some, before it negatively impacts them that human induced climate change is real and isnt going to be great