News & Discussion: Trams

[rubberman]

but pretty much no information on how that extra traffic generated will be able to be served.

Well most of the inner city infill zones are along existing PT corridors (buses), so at least there's that.

The argument with trams is great for those that live or work along the line, but take Henley Beach Road for example, where you can't just remove a lane for trams without significantly impacting traffic flow. And most of that traffic isn't going anywhere when people still need to travel to or from areas the trams don't serve, like Lockleys, Fulham Gardens etc...

This is a really good point. Trams have limited benefit for those people who don’t live near the line.

In my opinion, for the key east-west commuter route, a BRT system is better. It will have many of the benefits that the Obahn system has, which is Adelaide’s most popular public transport route. I know this won’t be popular opinion on this forum - hear me out on this.

Proposal:
- A continuous bus lane starting corner of Seaview Rd West Beach (running along Burbridge Rd, Sir Donald Bradman Dr) to West Tce in the CBD. From West Tce, buses join mixed traffic and turn right onto the bus lanes on Currie/Grenfell. At East Tce, turn onto Bartels Rd where a continuous bus lane recommences and terminates at Uni SA Magill (via Flinders St Kent Town, The Parade, Penfold Rd).
- Why SDB Drive rather than Henley Beach Rd? 1) Faster. 2) Opportunity for Airport Express bus to use the same BRT lane. 3) Opportunity to build park n ride facilities near Vimy Ave (on airport land) and opposite West Beach Apex Park on Burbridge Rd. We’ve seen how popular park n rides are on the Obahn.
- New fleet of modern (European?) 100% electric articulated buses, similar to those being used on the Brisbane Metro busway.
- New high-quality bus shelters, more like the tram stops we have in the CBD. Increased spacing between bus stops to 500-700m spacing.
- Traffic light priority at all signalised intersections.

Benefits:
1. Very inexpensive when compared to a tram. Also much faster implementation and less disruption during construction (main disruption probably involves widening some signalised intersections).
2. The biggest benefit is FLEXIBILITY. The BRT lane can be used by other buses originating from outside the BRT route itself. Eg buses from Henley Beach, Fulham Gardens, Harbourtown, Rostrevor etc can utilise the BRT lane for speedy ride into the CBD. In fact, these other bus routes could operate express on the BRT lane. Again, this is similar to the Obahn which collects passengers from various outer suburbs and then delivers them rapidly into the CBD. Trams don’t have this flexibility.
3. Electric bus is same speed as a tram. Both will have signalised priority at traffic lights.
4. Allows the option for BRT lane to be potentially used as normal traffic lanes during the evening (7pm to 7am).

This definitely should be an option looked at. One small point. Bus lanes do require pavement reconstruction. The bus lane in Grenfell and Currie is slways developing ruts and being resurfaced. Electric buses have higher axle loads, so I can't see anything less than new concrete construction being practical. The cost difference is the cost of adding a couple of rails. However, that is minor.

I'd also say that your proposal also means trolleybuses could be employed...especially European hybrids that can go off grid for diversions and route extensions.

Having said all that, it's not either/or. There's no reason why a bus cannot share a dedicated lane with trams. Not only do tram/bus shared lanes exist in Europe, but trams, buses, cars, bikes have shared roads since trams and buses existed.

So, why not both? There's no reason in the world why buses and trams couldn't share a dedicated public transport lane any more than they already share road spaces round the world now. (I've often said here that Port Road and Grange Road buses could share the tram line along Port Road from West Terrace to Hindmarsh. That would save passengers a lot of time, AND get buses out of the way of cars there. Win win?.

[ml69]

Well most of the inner city infill zones are along existing PT corridors (buses), so at least there's that.

The argument with trams is great for those that live or work along the line, but take Henley Beach Road for example, where you can't just remove a lane for trams without significantly impacting traffic flow. And most of that traffic isn't going anywhere when people still need to travel to or from areas the trams don't serve, like Lockleys, Fulham Gardens etc...

This is a really good point. Trams have limited benefit for those people who don’t live near the line.

In my opinion, for the key east-west commuter route, a BRT system is better. It will have many of the benefits that the Obahn system has, which is Adelaide’s most popular public transport route. I know this won’t be popular opinion on this forum - hear me out on this.

Proposal:
- A continuous bus lane starting corner of Seaview Rd West Beach (running along Burbridge Rd, Sir Donald Bradman Dr) to West Tce in the CBD. From West Tce, buses join mixed traffic and turn right onto the bus lanes on Currie/Grenfell. At East Tce, turn onto Bartels Rd where a continuous bus lane recommences and terminates at Uni SA Magill (via Flinders St Kent Town, The Parade, Penfold Rd).
- Why SDB Drive rather than Henley Beach Rd? 1) Faster. 2) Opportunity for Airport Express bus to use the same BRT lane. 3) Opportunity to build park n ride facilities near Vimy Ave (on airport land) and opposite West Beach Apex Park on Burbridge Rd. We’ve seen how popular park n rides are on the Obahn.
- New fleet of modern (European?) 100% electric articulated buses, similar to those being used on the Brisbane Metro busway.
- New high-quality bus shelters, more like the tram stops we have in the CBD. Increased spacing between bus stops to 500-700m spacing.
- Traffic light priority at all signalised intersections.

Benefits:
1. Very inexpensive when compared to a tram. Also much faster implementation and less disruption during construction (main disruption probably involves widening some signalised intersections).
2. The biggest benefit is FLEXIBILITY. The BRT lane can be used by other buses originating from outside the BRT route itself. Eg buses from Henley Beach, Fulham Gardens, Harbourtown, Rostrevor etc can utilise the BRT lane for speedy ride into the CBD. In fact, these other bus routes could operate express on the BRT lane. Again, this is similar to the Obahn which collects passengers from various outer suburbs and then delivers them rapidly into the CBD. Trams don’t have this flexibility.
3. Electric bus is same speed as a tram. Both will have signalised priority at traffic lights.
4. Allows the option for BRT lane to be potentially used as normal traffic lanes during the evening (7pm to 7am).

This definitely should be an option looked at. One small point. Bus lanes do require pavement reconstruction. The bus lane in Grenfell and Currie is slways developing ruts and being resurfaced. Electric buses have higher axle loads, so I can't see anything less than new concrete construction being practical. The cost difference is the cost of adding a couple of rails. However, that is minor.

I'd also say that your proposal also means trolleybuses could be employed...especially European hybrids that can go off grid for diversions and route extensions.

Having said all that, it's not either/or. There's no reason why a bus cannot share a dedicated lane with trams. Not only do tram/bus shared lanes exist in Europe, but trams, buses, cars, bikes have shared roads since trams and buses existed.

So, why not both? There's no reason in the world why buses and trams couldn't share a dedicated public transport lane any more than they already share road spaces round the world now. (I've often said here that Port Road and Grange Road buses could share the tram line along Port Road from West Terrace to Hindmarsh. That would save passengers a lot of time, AND get buses out of the way of cars there. Win win?.

Actually reconsidering this, would be better to run it partly along Henley Beach Rd.

Proposal:
- A continuous bus lane starting corner of Seaview Rd West Beach (running along Burbridge Rd, Sir Donald Bradman Dr, Airport Rd, Henley Beach Rd) connecting to the existing bus lanes on Currie/Grenfell. A simpler and faster entry/exit from the CBD.

[Saltwater]

Either / or for Henley Beach Road or Sir Don Bradman drive. I live between them and they're both a dog's breakfast in the mornings.

Minor point - when traffic volumes are heavy, double decker buses are preferable to articulated, as in theory it takes less time to get the the bus through a green light. On the northern beaches of Sydney for example the old L90 workhorses have been replaced by double decker B line buses. The downside would be they can't continue onto the Obhan.

[rubberman]

This is a really good point. Trams have limited benefit for those people who don’t live near the line.

In my opinion, for the key east-west commuter route, a BRT system is better. It will have many of the benefits that the Obahn system has, which is Adelaide’s most popular public transport route. I know this won’t be popular opinion on this forum - hear me out on this.

Proposal:
- A continuous bus lane starting corner of Seaview Rd West Beach (running along Burbridge Rd, Sir Donald Bradman Dr) to West Tce in the CBD. From West Tce, buses join mixed traffic and turn right onto the bus lanes on Currie/Grenfell. At East Tce, turn onto Bartels Rd where a continuous bus lane recommences and terminates at Uni SA Magill (via Flinders St Kent Town, The Parade, Penfold Rd).
- Why SDB Drive rather than Henley Beach Rd? 1) Faster. 2) Opportunity for Airport Express bus to use the same BRT lane. 3) Opportunity to build park n ride facilities near Vimy Ave (on airport land) and opposite West Beach Apex Park on Burbridge Rd. We’ve seen how popular park n rides are on the Obahn.
- New fleet of modern (European?) 100% electric articulated buses, similar to those being used on the Brisbane Metro busway.
- New high-quality bus shelters, more like the tram stops we have in the CBD. Increased spacing between bus stops to 500-700m spacing.
- Traffic light priority at all signalised intersections.

Benefits:
1. Very inexpensive when compared to a tram. Also much faster implementation and less disruption during construction (main disruption probably involves widening some signalised intersections).
2. The biggest benefit is FLEXIBILITY. The BRT lane can be used by other buses originating from outside the BRT route itself. Eg buses from Henley Beach, Fulham Gardens, Harbourtown, Rostrevor etc can utilise the BRT lane for speedy ride into the CBD. In fact, these other bus routes could operate express on the BRT lane. Again, this is similar to the Obahn which collects passengers from various outer suburbs and then delivers them rapidly into the CBD. Trams don’t have this flexibility.
3. Electric bus is same speed as a tram. Both will have signalised priority at traffic lights.
4. Allows the option for BRT lane to be potentially used as normal traffic lanes during the evening (7pm to 7am).

This definitely should be an option looked at. One small point. Bus lanes do require pavement reconstruction. The bus lane in Grenfell and Currie is slways developing ruts and being resurfaced. Electric buses have higher axle loads, so I can't see anything less than new concrete construction being practical. The cost difference is the cost of adding a couple of rails. However, that is minor.

I'd also say that your proposal also means trolleybuses could be employed...especially European hybrids that can go off grid for diversions and route extensions.

Having said all that, it's not either/or. There's no reason why a bus cannot share a dedicated lane with trams. Not only do tram/bus shared lanes exist in Europe, but trams, buses, cars, bikes have shared roads since trams and buses existed.

So, why not both? There's no reason in the world why buses and trams couldn't share a dedicated public transport lane any more than they already share road spaces round the world now. (I've often said here that Port Road and Grange Road buses could share the tram line along Port Road from West Terrace to Hindmarsh. That would save passengers a lot of time, AND get buses out of the way of cars there. Win win?.

Actually reconsidering this, would be better to run it partly along Henley Beach Rd.

Proposal:
- A continuous bus lane starting corner of Seaview Rd West Beach (running along Burbridge Rd, Sir Donald Bradman Dr, Airport Rd, Henley Beach Rd) connecting to the existing bus lanes on Currie/Grenfell. A simpler and faster entry/exit from the CBD.

I know I'm banging on a bit about the Port Road, but it would really be a good test for the concept you have. It would be relatively cheap to convert the tramline from West Terrace to Hindmarsh. Once that's done, and proven successful, that would provide evidence for a busway or combined busway/tramway on the routes you've outlined.

[abc]

so you've all just proved my point that buses are superior to trams

[Spotto]

so you've all just proved my point that buses are superior to trams

I’d suggest asking the users of Sydney’s route 333 to Bondi, the busiest bus route in Sydney, whether their chockablock buses would be superior to light rail?

Or people who commute around the Hoddle Grid in Melbourne CBD?

Or even comparing the old Bee-Line bus to the current tram route through Adelaide CBD?

[abc]

so you've all just proved my point that buses are superior to trams

I’d suggest asking the users of Sydney’s route 333 to Bondi, the busiest bus route in Sydney, whether their chockablock buses would be superior to light rail?

Or people who commute around the Hoddle Grid in Melbourne CBD?

Or even comparing the old Bee-Line bus to the current tram route through Adelaide CBD?

the Bee-Line was far better

[Spotto]

so you've all just proved my point that buses are superior to trams

I’d suggest asking the users of Sydney’s route 333 to Bondi, the busiest bus route in Sydney, whether their chockablock buses would be superior to light rail?

Or people who commute around the Hoddle Grid in Melbourne CBD?

Or even comparing the old Bee-Line bus to the current tram route through Adelaide CBD?

the Bee-Line was far better

According to who? The Bee-Line served a purpose back in its day, but the trams are more frequent and have through connections to Glenelg and Hindmarsh without needing to change services.

[rubberman]

so you've all just proved my point that buses are superior to trams

Yeah, right abc.

[Saltwater]

so you've all just proved my point that buses are superior to trams

I’d suggest asking the users of Sydney’s route 333 to Bondi, the busiest bus route in Sydney, whether their chockablock buses would be superior to light rail?

Or people who commute around the Hoddle Grid in Melbourne CBD?

Or even comparing the old Bee-Line bus to the current tram route through Adelaide CBD?

The buses to Bondi are decent, as in they depart every couple of minutes, and the bus lanes are strictly enforced. Not sure how trams would work, given they'd need to run in the middle lane down Bondi Road, when people would need to get on and off. If money was no object (and in Sydney they've been happy to spend the cash), extending the heavy rail from Bondi Junction would be the preference for most.

As for Adelaide, yes you can get a tram from Glenelg to Hindmarsh, but if you're travelling through the CBD the average speeds are awful, and in many cases it's faster to walk, and not sure how the situation would be any different if we put trams down the Parade, Henley Beach or Prospect Roads.

[rubberman]

so you've all just proved my point that buses are superior to trams

I’d suggest asking the users of Sydney’s route 333 to Bondi, the busiest bus route in Sydney, whether their chockablock buses would be superior to light rail?

Or people who commute around the Hoddle Grid in Melbourne CBD?

Or even comparing the old Bee-Line bus to the current tram route through Adelaide CBD?

The buses to Bondi are decent, as in they depart every couple of minutes, and the bus lanes are strictly enforced. Not sure how trams would work, given they'd need to run in the middle lane down Bondi Road, when people would need to get on and off. If money was no object (and in Sydney they've been happy to spend the cash), extending the heavy rail from Bondi Junction would be the preference for most.

As for Adelaide, yes you can get a tram from Glenelg to Hindmarsh, but if you're travelling through the CBD the average speeds are awful, and in many cases it's faster to walk, and not sure how the situation would be any different if we put trams down the Parade, Henley Beach or Prospect Roads.

Remove the unnecessary speed restrictions on the trams.

[abc]

so you've all just proved my point that buses are superior to trams

I’d suggest asking the users of Sydney’s route 333 to Bondi, the busiest bus route in Sydney, whether their chockablock buses would be superior to light rail?

Or people who commute around the Hoddle Grid in Melbourne CBD?

Or even comparing the old Bee-Line bus to the current tram route through Adelaide CBD?

The buses to Bondi are decent, as in they depart every couple of minutes, and the bus lanes are strictly enforced. Not sure how trams would work, given they'd need to run in the middle lane down Bondi Road, when people would need to get on and off. If money was no object (and in Sydney they've been happy to spend the cash), extending the heavy rail from Bondi Junction would be the preference for most.

As for Adelaide, yes you can get a tram from Glenelg to Hindmarsh, but if you're travelling through the CBD the average speeds are awful, and in many cases it's faster to walk, and not sure how the situation would be any different if we put trams down the Parade, Henley Beach or Prospect Roads.

100%

I live in the CBD and never use the tram because of precisely this... its faster to walk.

The BeeLine at least did a loop of the city. The tram only goes down KW St and North Tce ....very slowly.

[rubberman]

I’d suggest asking the users of Sydney’s route 333 to Bondi, the busiest bus route in Sydney, whether their chockablock buses would be superior to light rail?

Or people who commute around the Hoddle Grid in Melbourne CBD?

Or even comparing the old Bee-Line bus to the current tram route through Adelaide CBD?

The buses to Bondi are decent, as in they depart every couple of minutes, and the bus lanes are strictly enforced. Not sure how trams would work, given they'd need to run in the middle lane down Bondi Road, when people would need to get on and off. If money was no object (and in Sydney they've been happy to spend the cash), extending the heavy rail from Bondi Junction would be the preference for most.

As for Adelaide, yes you can get a tram from Glenelg to Hindmarsh, but if you're travelling through the CBD the average speeds are awful, and in many cases it's faster to walk, and not sure how the situation would be any different if we put trams down the Parade, Henley Beach or Prospect Roads.

100%

I live in the CBD and never use the tram because of precisely this... its faster to walk.

The BeeLine at least did a loop of the city. The tram only goes down KW St and North Tce ....very slowly.

The bee line never did. It went from Vic Square to the Station, then turned round in Light Square. That's it. The city loop bus is separate.

The tram could go faster....like just about any other city does. Why the Government slows it down, I have no idea...I suspect they don't either.

[rhino]

The city loop bus is separate.

And the city loop bus didn't get scrapped - it's still running. I'm surprised someone who claims to live in the city doesn't realise this.

[rubberman]

The city loop bus is separate.

And the city loop bus didn't get scrapped - it's still running. I'm surprised someone who claims to live in the city doesn't realise this.

In this case, I am not surprised at all.