News & Discussion: Trams

[ml69]

This is a really good point. Trams have limited benefit for those people who don’t live near the line.

In my opinion, for the key east-west commuter route, a BRT system is better. It will have many of the benefits that the Obahn system has, which is Adelaide’s most popular public transport route. I know this won’t be popular opinion on this forum - hear me out on this.

Proposal:
- A continuous bus lane starting corner of Seaview Rd West Beach (running along Burbridge Rd, Sir Donald Bradman Dr) to West Tce in the CBD. From West Tce, buses join mixed traffic and turn right onto the bus lanes on Currie/Grenfell. At East Tce, turn onto Bartels Rd where a continuous bus lane recommences and terminates at Uni SA Magill (via Flinders St Kent Town, The Parade, Penfold Rd).
- Why SDB Drive rather than Henley Beach Rd? 1) Faster. 2) Opportunity for Airport Express bus to use the same BRT lane. 3) Opportunity to build park n ride facilities near Vimy Ave (on airport land) and opposite West Beach Apex Park on Burbridge Rd. We’ve seen how popular park n rides are on the Obahn.
- New fleet of modern (European?) 100% electric articulated buses, similar to those being used on the Brisbane Metro busway.
- New high-quality bus shelters, more like the tram stops we have in the CBD. Increased spacing between bus stops to 500-700m spacing.
- Traffic light priority at all signalised intersections.

Benefits:
1. Very inexpensive when compared to a tram. Also much faster implementation and less disruption during construction (main disruption probably involves widening some signalised intersections).
2. The biggest benefit is FLEXIBILITY. The BRT lane can be used by other buses originating from outside the BRT route itself. Eg buses from Henley Beach, Fulham Gardens, Harbourtown, Rostrevor etc can utilise the BRT lane for speedy ride into the CBD. In fact, these other bus routes could operate express on the BRT lane. Again, this is similar to the Obahn which collects passengers from various outer suburbs and then delivers them rapidly into the CBD. Trams don’t have this flexibility.
3. Electric bus is same speed as a tram. Both will have signalised priority at traffic lights.
4. Allows the option for BRT lane to be potentially used as normal traffic lanes during the evening (7pm to 7am).

This definitely should be an option looked at. One small point. Bus lanes do require pavement reconstruction. The bus lane in Grenfell and Currie is slways developing ruts and being resurfaced. Electric buses have higher axle loads, so I can't see anything less than new concrete construction being practical. The cost difference is the cost of adding a couple of rails. However, that is minor.

I'd also say that your proposal also means trolleybuses could be employed...especially European hybrids that can go off grid for diversions and route extensions.

Having said all that, it's not either/or. There's no reason why a bus cannot share a dedicated lane with trams. Not only do tram/bus shared lanes exist in Europe, but trams, buses, cars, bikes have shared roads since trams and buses existed.

So, why not both? There's no reason in the world why buses and trams couldn't share a dedicated public transport lane any more than they already share road spaces round the world now. (I've often said here that Port Road and Grange Road buses could share the tram line along Port Road from West Terrace to Hindmarsh. That would save passengers a lot of time, AND get buses out of the way of cars there. Win win?.

Actually reconsidering this, would be better to run it partly along Henley Beach Rd.

Proposal:
- A continuous bus lane starting corner of Seaview Rd West Beach (running along Burbridge Rd, Sir Donald Bradman Dr, Airport Rd, Henley Beach Rd) connecting to the existing bus lanes on Currie/Grenfell. A simpler and faster entry/exit from the CBD.

I’m back banging on the BRT drum again for the Henley Beach > Magill east-west route in Adelaide.
Have found a very successful implementation of what I’m talking about in Belfast, Northern Ireland. A 24km route (similar in length to Henley Beach to Magill) was completed in 2018 for £100M ($200M AUD). Patronage has increased by 70% and more routes are now planned.
https://www.route-one.net/features/how- ... t-success/

[PeFe]

Why not just increase the frequency?

10 minutes by day and 20 minutes nights and weekends...

Too many people in Adelaide are obsessed by building new tram lines, train lines or new O-bahns. Increases in frequency is also "better public transport".

I would like to see a lot of the Liberals bus plan implemented ie route renumbering as priority number one. One bus route (and number) that traverses the same route (Henley Beach Rd and Magill Rd) all the time.

The current Adelaide bus numbering system is ridiculous....a mishmash of numbers and letters with through buses and city terminating buses...
God knows what overseas tourists make of it...

[abc]

Why not just increase the frequency?

10 minutes by day and 20 minutes nights and weekends...

Too many people in Adelaide are obsessed by building new tram lines, train lines or new O-bahns. Increases in frequency is also "better public transport".

I would like to see a lot of the Liberals bus plan implemented ie route renumbering as priority number one. One bus route (and number) that traverses the same route (Henley Beach Rd and Magill Rd) all the time.

The current Adelaide bus numbering system is ridiculous....a mishmash of numbers and letters with through buses and city terminating buses...
God knows what overseas tourists make of it...

Agreed... however I don't think its too many people in Adelaide thinking this way, its more an observation of the kind of characters a forum of this nature attracts. There's either a romanticism or an 'on the spectrum' obsession with rail based transport.

They work well in large cities or densely populated cities, but that's not the reality in Adelaide.

Greater frequency of buses would solve a lot of problems.

[rubberman]

This definitely should be an option looked at. One small point. Bus lanes do require pavement reconstruction. The bus lane in Grenfell and Currie is slways developing ruts and being resurfaced. Electric buses have higher axle loads, so I can't see anything less than new concrete construction being practical. The cost difference is the cost of adding a couple of rails. However, that is minor.

I'd also say that your proposal also means trolleybuses could be employed...especially European hybrids that can go off grid for diversions and route extensions.

Having said all that, it's not either/or. There's no reason why a bus cannot share a dedicated lane with trams. Not only do tram/bus shared lanes exist in Europe, but trams, buses, cars, bikes have shared roads since trams and buses existed.

So, why not both? There's no reason in the world why buses and trams couldn't share a dedicated public transport lane any more than they already share road spaces round the world now. (I've often said here that Port Road and Grange Road buses could share the tram line along Port Road from West Terrace to Hindmarsh. That would save passengers a lot of time, AND get buses out of the way of cars there. Win win?.

Actually reconsidering this, would be better to run it partly along Henley Beach Rd.

Proposal:
- A continuous bus lane starting corner of Seaview Rd West Beach (running along Burbridge Rd, Sir Donald Bradman Dr, Airport Rd, Henley Beach Rd) connecting to the existing bus lanes on Currie/Grenfell. A simpler and faster entry/exit from the CBD.

I’m back banging on the BRT drum again for the Henley Beach > Magill east-west route in Adelaide.
Have found a very successful implementation of what I’m talking about in Belfast, Northern Ireland. A 24km route (similar in length to Henley Beach to Magill) was completed in 2018 for £100M ($200M AUD). Patronage has increased by 70% and more routes are now planned.
https://www.route-one.net/features/how- ... t-success/

We already have the makings of a busway from West Terrace along Port Road to Hindmarsh. We could rum that as a busway almost immediately by eliminating the centre island stops and making them side loading. Buses could then share the lane with trams. Cheap, and if it worked, then we could go to the expense of busways elsewhere. Including the option of mixed tram and bus operation.

[Patrick_27]

Actually reconsidering this, would be better to run it partly along Henley Beach Rd.

Proposal:
- A continuous bus lane starting corner of Seaview Rd West Beach (running along Burbridge Rd, Sir Donald Bradman Dr, Airport Rd, Henley Beach Rd) connecting to the existing bus lanes on Currie/Grenfell. A simpler and faster entry/exit from the CBD.

I’m back banging on the BRT drum again for the Henley Beach > Magill east-west route in Adelaide.
Have found a very successful implementation of what I’m talking about in Belfast, Northern Ireland. A 24km route (similar in length to Henley Beach to Magill) was completed in 2018 for £100M ($200M AUD). Patronage has increased by 70% and more routes are now planned.
https://www.route-one.net/features/how- ... t-success/

We already have the makings of a busway from West Terrace along Port Road to Hindmarsh. We could rum that as a busway almost immediately by eliminating the centre island stops and making them side loading. Buses could then share the lane with trams. Cheap, and if it worked, then we could go to the expense of busways elsewhere. Including the option of mixed tram and bus operation.

Not exactly as cheap and easy as you mention... The buses would have to get from their outer dedicated lanes on West Terrace to the middle of Port Road, plus the tramline is elevated along this entire stretch, reads to me like a recipe for disaster of buses trying to guide themselves along that stretch of track without their left side coming off. Works for ambulances and police cars because they're not as wide but busses are a different story. You'd be better off having dedicated bus lanes on the outer lanes the whole way down Port Road..

[rubberman]

I’m back banging on the BRT drum again for the Henley Beach > Magill east-west route in Adelaide.
Have found a very successful implementation of what I’m talking about in Belfast, Northern Ireland. A 24km route (similar in length to Henley Beach to Magill) was completed in 2018 for £100M ($200M AUD). Patronage has increased by 70% and more routes are now planned.
https://www.route-one.net/features/how- ... t-success/

We already have the makings of a busway from West Terrace along Port Road to Hindmarsh. We could rum that as a busway almost immediately by eliminating the centre island stops and making them side loading. Buses could then share the lane with trams. Cheap, and if it worked, then we could go to the expense of busways elsewhere. Including the option of mixed tram and bus operation.

Not exactly as cheap and easy as you mention... The buses would have to get from their outer dedicated lanes on West Terrace to the middle of Port Road, plus the tramline is elevated along this entire stretch, reads to me like a recipe for disaster of buses trying to guide themselves along that stretch of track without their left side coming off. Works for ambulances and police cars because they're not as wide but busses are a different story. You'd be better off having dedicated bus lanes on the outer lanes the whole way down Port Road..

The technology for steering buses on a fixed track is now well known. Getting from West Terrace to the busway involves a simple "B" light at the West Terrace/North Terrace intersection allowing the bus to join the tramway near the hospital.

[abc]

busways like the O-bahn will go the way of the dodo... this is what they have in Brisbane town now...

this is probably the future for Adelaide at some point too in the next 50 years, I don't see them expanding the rail network



Bogota has had the Transmilenio for 20 odd years.. its pretty much the same thing except they run on CNG and diesel

[rubberman]

busways like the O-bahn will go the way of the dodo... this is what they have in Brisbane town now...

this is probably the future for Adelaide at some point too in the next 50 years, I don't see them expanding the rail network



Bogota has had the Transmilenio for 20 odd years.. its pretty much the same thing except they run on CNG and diesel

So...a long bus. Using the same buses as Zürich, but batteries instead of trolleywire overhead. On a reserved busway...like the O-Bahn...but wider and more expensive.

Underwhelming.

Because of the batteries, they are heavy, and can't use ordinary roads without extensive works. Most other places that use them, like Zürich, as I mentioned, and Bratislava, and Prague, have far lighter batteries and overhead power collection so the can run on normal roads as well.

Bratislava.

[abc]

busways like the O-bahn will go the way of the dodo... this is what they have in Brisbane town now...

this is probably the future for Adelaide at some point too in the next 50 years, I don't see them expanding the rail network



Bogota has had the Transmilenio for 20 odd years.. its pretty much the same thing except they run on CNG and diesel

So...a long bus. Using the same buses as Zürich, but batteries instead of trolleywire overhead. On a reserved busway...like the O-Bahn...but wider and more expensive.

Underwhelming.

Because of the batteries, they are heavy, and can't use ordinary roads without extensive works. Most other places that use them, like Zürich, as I mentioned, and Bratislava, and Prague, have far lighter batteries and overhead power collection so the can run on normal roads as well.

20240623_172154.jpg

Bratislava.

what you posted is a trolley bus

[rubberman]

busways like the O-bahn will go the way of the dodo... this is what they have in Brisbane town now...

this is probably the future for Adelaide at some point too in the next 50 years, I don't see them expanding the rail network



Bogota has had the Transmilenio for 20 odd years.. its pretty much the same thing except they run on CNG and diesel

So...a long bus. Using the same buses as Zürich, but batteries instead of trolleywire overhead. On a reserved busway...like the O-Bahn...but wider and more expensive.

Underwhelming.

Because of the batteries, they are heavy, and can't use ordinary roads without extensive works. Most other places that use them, like Zürich, as I mentioned, and Bratislava, and Prague, have far lighter batteries and overhead power collection so the can run on normal roads as well.

20240623_172154.jpg

Bratislava.

what you posted is a trolley bus

Indeed they are.

That's the point. Those vehicles in Brisbane are just trolleybuses which have the option of taking out some seats and adding batteries. It's the same vehicle, where the manufacturer offers either, a full trolleybus version (no battery), a full battery bus version (no wires), or a hybrid battery and overhead wire version.

Brisbane could have ordered any of those options. If, for whatever reason, those Brisbane buses struggle, it's just a matter of putting on a couple of trolley poles and overhead wires for some of the busway. Calling it a 'Metro' is just fancy marketing. It's a bus on a busway...like the O-Bahn, but more expensive.

Brisbane could have simply put up overhead wires

There's probably no reason why Adelaide couldn't buy some for the O-Bahn. At the very least to see if those 3 section buses could track on the O-Bahn profile. If Adelaide bought the battery/overhead version, it might also have a low enough axle load to run on ordinary streets, unlike the full battery bus in Brisbane.

[abc]

So...a long bus. Using the same buses as Zürich, but batteries instead of trolleywire overhead. On a reserved busway...like the O-Bahn...but wider and more expensive.

Underwhelming.

Because of the batteries, they are heavy, and can't use ordinary roads without extensive works. Most other places that use them, like Zürich, as I mentioned, and Bratislava, and Prague, have far lighter batteries and overhead power collection so the can run on normal roads as well.

20240623_172154.jpg

Bratislava.

what you posted is a trolley bus

Indeed they are.

That's the point. Those vehicles in Brisbane are just trolleybuses which have the option of taking out some seats and adding batteries. It's the same vehicle, where the manufacturer offers either, a full trolleybus version (no battery), a full battery bus version (no wires), or a hybrid battery and overhead wire version.

Brisbane could have ordered any of those options. If, for whatever reason, those Brisbane buses struggle, it's just a matter of putting on a couple of trolley poles and overhead wires for some of the busway. Calling it a 'Metro' is just fancy marketing. It's a bus on a busway...like the O-Bahn, but more expensive.

Brisbane could have simply put up overhead wires

There's probably no reason why Adelaide couldn't buy some for the O-Bahn. At the very least to see if those 3 section buses could track on the O-Bahn profile. If Adelaide bought the battery/overhead version, it might also have a low enough axle load to run on ordinary streets, unlike the full battery bus in Brisbane.

They're not trolley buses in Brisbane as they're not on an electrical network. They're battery buses.

[rubberman]

what you posted is a trolley bus

Indeed they are.

That's the point. Those vehicles in Brisbane are just trolleybuses which have the option of taking out some seats and adding batteries. It's the same vehicle, where the manufacturer offers either, a full trolleybus version (no battery), a full battery bus version (no wires), or a hybrid battery and overhead wire version.

Brisbane could have ordered any of those options. If, for whatever reason, those Brisbane buses struggle, it's just a matter of putting on a couple of trolley poles and overhead wires for some of the busway. Calling it a 'Metro' is just fancy marketing. It's a bus on a busway...like the O-Bahn, but more expensive.

Brisbane could have simply put up overhead wires

There's probably no reason why Adelaide couldn't buy some for the O-Bahn. At the very least to see if those 3 section buses could track on the O-Bahn profile. If Adelaide bought the battery/overhead version, it might also have a low enough axle load to run on ordinary streets, unlike the full battery bus in Brisbane.

They're not trolley buses in Brisbane as they're not on an electrical network. They're battery buses.

So. An electric bus that gets its power from a battery rather than overhead wires, but in every other respect...identical?

Shrug. Ok. I'm not sure how that's an important distinction, but yes. Identical bus, but power supplied from the grid differently.

[abc]

Indeed they are.

That's the point. Those vehicles in Brisbane are just trolleybuses which have the option of taking out some seats and adding batteries. It's the same vehicle, where the manufacturer offers either, a full trolleybus version (no battery), a full battery bus version (no wires), or a hybrid battery and overhead wire version.

Brisbane could have ordered any of those options. If, for whatever reason, those Brisbane buses struggle, it's just a matter of putting on a couple of trolley poles and overhead wires for some of the busway. Calling it a 'Metro' is just fancy marketing. It's a bus on a busway...like the O-Bahn, but more expensive.

Brisbane could have simply put up overhead wires

There's probably no reason why Adelaide couldn't buy some for the O-Bahn. At the very least to see if those 3 section buses could track on the O-Bahn profile. If Adelaide bought the battery/overhead version, it might also have a low enough axle load to run on ordinary streets, unlike the full battery bus in Brisbane.

They're not trolley buses in Brisbane as they're not on an electrical network. They're battery buses.

So. An electric bus that gets its power from a battery rather than overhead wires, but in every other respect...identical?

Shrug. Ok. I'm not sure how that's an important distinction, but yes. Identical bus, but power supplied from the grid differently.

The term "trolley" is derived from the "trolley poles" that are used to connect the bus to an overhead power line.

[Westside]

They're not trolley buses in Brisbane as they're not on an electrical network. They're battery buses.

So. An electric bus that gets its power from a battery rather than overhead wires, but in every other respect...identical?

Shrug. Ok. I'm not sure how that's an important distinction, but yes. Identical bus, but power supplied from the grid differently.

The term "trolley" is derived from the "trolley poles" that are used to connect the bus to an overhead power line.

But they are trolley buses. They have a pantograph (trolley pole) they raise at each end of the route to charge the batteries. So they are a bit of both.