COM: Glenelg Tramline Upgrade

[Shuz]

The advertising on our trams look lovely and all (except the Maccas one!) but WHY have they left the fronts of them yellow? It just doesnt match!

[AG]

Yellow is the standard colour for the front of most public transport vehicles nowadays for reasons of safety, yellow is more visible than other colours are.

[Bulldozer]

I am not being predictable here, but if there were to be a terrorist scare targeting bins, the first city to be hit would be big Sydney, not little Adelaide. I know it does not hurt to be more concerned and take precaution, but the lack of bins can be frustrating sometimes.

Just drop your rubbish on the floor then. If enough people do it then they'll get the hint that they should bring the bins back. I agree though, taking them away because a "terrarist" might put a bomb in one was nothing but a paranoid knee-jerk reaction. Why not take away the bins in Rundle Mall and food courts as well?

As for that McDonalds tram... ughh. I really wish the advertisements didn't cover up the yellow, blue and red triangular bits on the ends of them though.

[warpspeed]

I rode the new trams for the first time last night, down to Glenelg and back.

They're quite nice inside, certainly a lot better than the older trams.

Two things that I find most interesting are that passengers are required to push the buttons to open the doors, I see this as a good and a bad thing. I saw a few people almost miss getting off last night because they didn't realise or didn't push the button at the right time.

And, it's really evident when sitting right at the ends of the tram just how much wobble/deflection you still get on the old tracks. They really need to fix up some of those tracks. It's not so bad sitting in the middle of the tram though.

I also didn't like, at night, the difficulty of seeing outside the windows because of the full-cover advertising that covers the windows; Made it very hard to look out the windows, not so bad when the sun is up.

Being able to catch the tram to/from Rundle Mall directly is very nice, I hadn't really appreciated the convenience of it till I decided to make use of it last night. Overall though, not a bad ride. I definitely think the Government should look further into using light rail in some areas close to the city. e.g. to the airport, the parade, maybe Port Adelaide.

One other thing my trip last night got me thinking about is that there are quite a few stops from Glenelg to the City. It'd be really nice if they had express services that say, ran on a 'middle' track express from Brighton to Greenhill Road (thus not interrupting the other trams), or even perhaps just from say Morphett Road to Grenhill Road.

Perhaps thats something the government could think about for the future. Something like that whilst costly could be quite efficient and handy on long lines like Noarlunga and Gawler. It might also help ease the congestion during peak hour as those at the end of the line will take the faster express service.

[AG]

A third track does not address issues of capacity on a rail corridor in the most efficient way. Melbourne's Belgrave and Lilydale Line corridor has 3 tracks between Burnley and Box Hill. A third track does allow for express services, but generally only in one direction. The efficiency of a 3 track corridor largely depends on how it is designed.

One issue the Belgrave/Lilydale corridor faced for a while was level crossings, particularly at the Middleborough Road crossing at Laburnum which was grade separated in January 2007. It wasn't uncommon for the crossing to be blocked by trains for over 5 minutes at a time as up to 3 or even 4 trains crossed the crossing in any one period. This was because the 3 track section ended about a kilometre west at Box Hill and all stations services (heading to Blackburn, one station beyond Laburnum) would merge onto the same track as express services (heading to Lilydale or Belgrave) which would sometimes arrive at Box Hill around the same time.

Even if there was a 3rd track capable of taking extra trams there would still be capacity issues imposed by the restrictions at each end of the line. Both ends of the Glenelg tram line have single track sections, and in order to take on extra trams, either a 2nd platform and track would need to be reinstated at Moseley Square or the tram drivers would have to change ends very quickly to avoid blocking other terminating trams.

[rubberman]

The idea of a third track presupposes that there are capacity constraints on the line.

I suspect that the restraints are more to do with the number of trams that they have available.

I mean that if they had the trams available, they could insert a stopping tram from Morphettville behind any of the existing service cars. Those service cars could then be converted to run express to Greenhill Road without bumping into the car ahead of them.

[Will409]

I have just spent the week in Melbourne (hence my lack of presence) and when compared to the Melbourne system, I can safely say that ours wins hands down although ours does have the advantage of being new. I ended up travelling routes 3, 16, 35, 55, 59, 78 and 109 and nearly had a ride on one of every single tram type they have. While the older Z1, Z3 and B2 classes had a reasonable ride, the 2-4 year old C, D1 and D3 classes were not good at all. Unlike our Flexis which have a proper truck that pivots under the tram, the latter 3 Melbourne trams have the truck rigidly mounted to the body with only 4 wheels per end section with the centre section just hanging with no wheels under it at all. The result is that around corners, they edge themselves around the corner going from side to side somewhat and when they come to a stop after the corner (as I found at St Kilda). They are also somewhat noisier (especially the C class) because the wheels are rigidly attached to the body.

This isn't a biased opinion either since I know of a number of enthusiasts who have come to Adelaide and have said that the Flexis ride very well. We have it off very well.

[Norman]

I have just spent the week in Melbourne (hence my lack of presence) and when compared to the Melbourne system, I can safely say that ours wins hands down although ours does have the advantage of being new. I ended up travelling routes 3, 16, 35, 55, 59, 78 and 109 and nearly had a ride on one of every single tram type they have. While the older Z1, Z3 and B2 classes had a reasonable ride, the 2-4 year old C, D1 and D3 classes were not good at all. Unlike our Flexis which have a proper truck that pivots under the tram, the latter 3 Melbourne trams have the truck rigidly mounted to the body with only 4 wheels per end section with the centre section just hanging with no wheels under it at all. The result is that around corners, they edge themselves around the corner going from side to side somewhat and when they come to a stop after the corner (as I found at St Kilda). They are also somewhat noisier (especially the C class) because the wheels are rigidly attached to the body.

This isn't a biased opinion either since I know of a number of enthusiasts who have come to Adelaide and have said that the Flexis ride very well. We have it off very well.

I was in Melbourne for the Adelaide v Melbourne game this weekend, and I got to ride the tram to St. Kilda beach. I too must say ours are much better, the new trams seem to have issues with cooling/air flow in the tram, and generally the trams are slow as hell. Even on their own track section, they only go between 30 and 40 km/h. Ours go 60-70 I believe.

Melbourne, once again, is overrrated. The only good thing about it is that the system is very extensive, something we should catch up on.

[skyliner]

[quote="warpspeed"

And, it's really evident when sitting right at the ends of the tram just how much wobble/deflection you still get on the old tracks. They really need to fix up some of those tracks. It's not so bad sitting in the middle of the tram though.[/quote]

The tracks as I understand were all fixed up before the introduction of the new trams (see earlier parts of this thread)
That being the case, and still a rough ride results, it begs the question of the springing in the bogies under the frames.
I know the suspension required can be done from experience on the inter capital Daylight. You coould stand a 50c coin on the table in the dining carriage and it would not tip over.Admittedly, the bogies were 12 wheelers, but the speed was much higher and it was 35 years ago - technology has gone a long way since then.

Also to be observed,by sitting in an overhanging section (beyond the wheels) of the tram all irregularities will tend to be magnified anyway. (similar in planes)

ADELAIDE - CITY ON THE MOVE

[Will409]

Part of the reason may be because unlike the Intercapital Daylight 12 wheel coaches (which dated from the 1920s) is that the Flexis are not designed for the sustained high speed running that we put them through. There are also some rails towards the Adelaide end that weren't replaced during the rebuild in 2005 (which is perfectly normal railway practise if the rails are in good condition). However, a tender was recently let by TransAdelaide to have 5 route kms of track (or 20 linear kms of rail) to replace the old rail.

[skyliner]

I take your point about the flexi speed mentioned. Also, however, remember that 1920's built railway stock travelled very well for that age. This leads me to think that reasonabe speed should not be an issue for these trams and that they are not the cause of the poor motion experienced by passengers.It is light rail transit after all.

Would the rails themselves cause such irregularities in tram motion. I believe that factor is more to do with the ballast under the sleepers as well as sleeper connections via tight spiking - though this also may need attention.

[Will409]

Rails can cause poor ride quality due to a number of reasons.

Rails can warp/buckle due to extensive use over a number of years in extremes of heat. The result is that the rail can flex more then it used to. Some of the rails on the Glenelg line date from when it was converted to a tram line in 1929 and while they are generally in good condition, some have buckeled due to differing expansion caused by the new rails that have been inserted. This has partly caused the poor riding by making the tram 'flange cut' into the rail head. If you look closely, you can tell in the rail head where this has happened. On the H class in particlular, you can hear something of a wheel squeel noise on the straight section from Greenhill Road to South Road stops. By modern standards, the old 80lb per yard (36kg per metre) rails that are used on the city end of the line are generally regarded as fairly light rail and lighter rail does flex more then heavier rail. Some of the rails at the outer end of the line are 107lb per yard (53kg per metre). A mulitude of factors outlined above have caused the ride quality issues. When the new rails arrive, this should solve the problems.

[skyliner]

Rails can cause poor ride quality due to a number of reasons.

Rails can warp/buckle due to extensive use over a number of years in extremes of heat. The result is that the rail can flex more then it used to. Some of the rails on the Glenelg line date from when it was converted to a tram line in 1929 and while they are generally in good condition, some have buckeled due to differing expansion caused by the new rails that have been inserted. This has partly caused the poor riding by making the tram 'flange cut' into the rail head. If you look closely, you can tell in the rail head where this has happened. On the H class in particlular, you can hear something of a wheel squeel noise on the straight section from Greenhill Road to South Road stops. By modern standards, the old 80lb per yard (36kg per metre) rails that are used on the city end of the line are generally regarded as fairly light rail and lighter rail does flex more then heavier rail. Some of the rails at the outer end of the line are 107lb per yard (53kg per metre). A mulitude of factors outlined above have caused the ride quality issues. When the new rails arrive, this should solve the problems.

So not all the rails were upgraded when all the work at the start of this thread took place?

I take your point about old track - that certainly is the case. The whole thing about excessive unwanted motion on the trams now makes a lot more sense. Wheel squeal can evidence track irregularities.

BTW That'a quite heavy track at 107lb a yard for the old days. They used to run the Webb engines on 90lb plant and they were a lot heavier that any tram (180 - 230 tones).

ADELAIDE - CITY ON THE MOVE

[Will409]

107lb plant rail was put in during the rebuild in 2005 at the outer end of the line replacing some poor condition 80lb plant. About 25% of the old rail was replaced while the rest was ground down with a track grinder. In SA atleast, 107lb plant rail has only been in use since 1973 or there abouts where as 80lb rail has been used since c.1910.

[rubberman]

Tram rail in streets for electric trams has always been quite high (between 100 and 107 lb). I guess this is for the extra metal for the grooves and for the fact that the railhead to sleeper distance was determined by the need to put in paving such as woodblocks or granite setts above the sleeper level - this would make the rails higher than needed for rails in open ballast.

On ballasted track trams can run quite smoothly on 60lb rail IF the ballast is well packed and maintained. This is one of the major problems on the Bay line - as the track gets run over by the trams, the ballast does not compact evenly, and bumps develop. If they had a program of repacking every few years, it would make a huge difference.

Most of the line has been replaced, and I am surprised if there is any of the original rail left anywhere. The date of the rail and its weight is stamped on it - normally at the 'joints' - so if anyone has a location of any original rail, I would be interested to know where that is.

The rail in 1929 was just the old steam train rail turned around so that the old running surface was on the outside - so if any of it exists still, it could be turn of the 20th century stuff. Wow. I think they got rid of most of that in the seventies - but I could be wrong.

Another thing that seems to happen with tram track is corrugations - there are some of these in Jetty Rd and just where the tracks emerge from the reservation in Peackock/King William Roads. However, that does not cause flexing.