News & Discussion: Trams

[Brando]

You say that King Wm St can't fit the Melbourne style stops. First if Swanston Street can fit them King William St can.

Don't forget Swanston St is closed to traffic. Tram and Taxi's only.

[jk1237]

rubberman, I meant that we havent had water restrictions until the last 2 years, since the pipelines from the Murray were built. Most English cities have water restrictions if it doesnt rain for 2 weeks. Reservoirs are non existent over there caus they expect it to rain all the time.

The superstops that are in Collins St Melb, could not have worked at all in King William St north. In Collins St they allow 1 car lane of traffic to pass only. Just imagine the outcry if we stopped 4 out of 8 lanes in King William St. Away from the stops would be alright. They had to be centre platorms. I have to find a photo of Collins St to show what I mean. Swanston St is narrow, and is only for taxis, coaches and trams, so centre platforms arent needed

[jk1237]

this is what i mean, from timothyadrian of flickr in Melbourne



if they were in King William Street, 1 lane would be closed off for the the tramline, then another for the stops. It had to be centre stops. We couldn't have the traditional no platform safety zone stops as they dont cater for wheelies

and heres 1 of a stop (or lack of) in Swanston St. Couldnt have worked with amount of traffic on King Will St

[jk1237]

another 1 of Collins St superstops thanks to flickr



this is a traditinal city centre stop, very primitive however the little screen you can just seen right is what we need


ok I'll stop now, sorry

[Will409]

Try this for a close up of the PID (which is part of the Yarra Trams developed TrackTracker system). Information displayed includes current time, time the trams are supposed to arrive and what route they run. It just so happens that the tram I was waiting for (route 59) just happened to be the only one without an estimated arrival time!

[AG]

Keep in mind that Swanston Street wasn't always laid out as it is now. Swanston Street was actually much like King William Street not much more than about 15 years ago until the decision was made to restrict Swanston Street to local traffic and trams only.

Swanston Street was 2 lanes in each direction (plus parking) and was loaded with cars during peak hours, then the decision was made to restrict traffic and turn it into a pedestrian friendly zone.

[rubberman]

Ok jk, let me clarify.

If these were the Glenelg Tram Extension pages and we were only talking about ever having one tram route go down King Wm St, the present stops are actually ok.

The inane nature of them relates to the subject of these pages which is about growing that track if that means more trams on the route.

The problem is, and it relates to plannning, that if you can only fit one tram on a stop at a time, then only one tram can get over the intersections at Rundle Mall and Pirie and Vic Sq at a time. If you can fit two trams on a stop at a time, then they can both load/unload simultaneously and get over the intersection together when the lights change.

That is not a problem at the moment and forever if we only have the number of trams running that are needed for the shuttle and Glenelg. However, if we have another route somewhere which means more trams on the route, then the congestion and extra time that is caused by every second tram having to wait at each intersection effectively by one light cycle per time, the effect is going to be disastrous. No other city with trams and multiple routes does it - and for good reason. You cannot stop trams bunching up in downtown streets once there are more than one route coming together.

So - what I am saying is that if you want the city tram track to grow, you will have to come up with something different to the centre loading tram stops. Or just keep the growing of city tram tracks in your dreams.

They can do it in King Wm St South - and that is the same width as King Wm North, so I cannot see a problem.

From the water pov. Yes, we only have had water restrictions in the past couple of years. Professional planners are able to predict the need and size of infrastructure to cope. Like I said, if we had built the desal plant five years ago, we would not have had the water restrictions in the past two. What I said and what SA Water could have said if they had done any planning. Also, we are not talking high level planning here. Last dam built almost thirty years ago, city size increases almost fifteen percent in that time. Geez, blind Freddy could have seen it coming.

[jk1237]

The inane nature of them relates to the subject of these pages which is about growing that track if that means more trams on the route.

The problem is, and it relates to plannning, that if you can only fit one tram on a stop at a time, then only one tram can get over the intersections at Rundle Mall and Pirie and Vic Sq at a time. If you can fit two trams on a stop at a time, then they can both load/unload simultaneously and get over the intersection together when the lights change.

That is not a problem at the moment and forever if we only have the number of trams running that are needed for the shuttle and Glenelg. However, if we have another route somewhere which means more trams on the route, then the congestion and extra time that is caused by every second tram having to wait at each intersection effectively by one light cycle per time, the effect is going to be disastrous. No other city with trams and multiple routes does it - and for good reason. You cannot stop trams bunching up in downtown streets once there are more than one route coming together.

So - what I am saying is that if you want the city tram track to grow, you will have to come up with something different to the centre loading tram stops. Or just keep the growing of city tram tracks in your dreams.

haha, thats really not a major issue at all. In the above Melbourne shots, the new superstops can only take 1 tram at a time over there, with 3-4 routes on each street. Have you noticed the bank up of o'bahn buses in Grenfell St waiting to get to the stops in peak hour. Bankups of public transport happens in buses, trains and trams near the city centres everywhere.

I must admit our trams look much better than those (citadis trams in think) along Collins St routes

[Dave_The_Planner]

jk1237 wrote:
As for the drought, we are experiencing one of the worst droughts in 100 years, however our reservoirs are still over 70% full arent they. I call that good planning, that we have been able to withstand a drought like this. Every city in the world has water restrictions in times of drought. We've never had water restrictions as we are very lucky to rely on the Murray. No other city in Aust has that bonus. Brisbane has been on the next level restriction above us for over a year.

True, our reservoirs aren't exactly empty. But the reason for this is that SA Water has been pumping water from the Murray to keep them that way. Did you go to the SA Water Christmas show last year? If not, you would have heard about the ridiculous amounts of water being diverted into our catchment system. There is no vision or planning for that, it is simply because they have to. Planning would have prevented the current level of water pumping, by perhaps, expanding the water storage capacity years ago. The truth is, no State Government in the past 20 years has spent nearly enough on infrastructure in roads, water, public transport or the like, and we are now paying for it.

I think you are confusing band-aid measures with proper planning. All of these things, including the tram system (which is, by the way, the topic of this forum) can be planned for years in advance. A plan is a comprehensive document outlining how a project is to rolled out, however all we've seen so far are a bunch of unrelated "decisions" that have no broad scope or "plan".

[Shuz]

Thanks Will, I was trying to find a picture of these information timetables. Every tram stop should have one, compiled with a automated advisory service that informs passengers of alternative forms of transport to get to their destination in the event of a breakdown or severe delay.

[Norman]

I do think those displays are a bit shit to read, LED ones are much better.

[rubberman]

Um, jk, please check my posts.

Adelaide had Melbourne style left hand loading in King William Street with safety zones till 1958. So don't waste time saying it can't be done when it already has been done in Adelaide over a period of near enough to fifty years from 1909 to 1958. Furthermore, the public transport loadings of the forties and fifties were hugely more than at present before most people had cars. So it has worked, it has worked in King William St, it has worked in King William St with many times the loads that are under consideration here. All you are telling us is that Melbourne Super Stops won't work here. Did I mention that I wanted Super Stops?

You mentioned the O - Bahn. Nice example of planning that was - not.

I agree 100% with Dave_the_Planner.

Hey Norman, is that in the Stuttgart U-Bahn? I remember the old SSB GT4 streetcars with some fondness.

[Norman]

Um, jk, please check my posts.Hey Norman, is that in the Stuttgart U-Bahn? I remember the old SSB GT4 streetcars with some fondness.

It sure is. I lived there for 10 years and went back for a holiday last year. All their old trams are gone now, replaced by these light rail vehicles called the Stadtbahn (translated to City Train).

I wish these were here. In fact, my subway project surrounds the vehicles avaliable there.

[jk1237]

I realise Adl had those stops up until they were ripped up in 1958. They're based on a 1905 design, where cars going past 5 cm from where u are standing, at 60km/h werent in the equation. However, whats the point in having low floor trams if wheelchairs cant access the trams from the stops. I bet ya anything that if Melbourne could magically change to inside platforms in the city centre, they would do it. They are much safer, and take up less room, and can have a shelter.

By the way, one of the most comprehensive plans and visions in this state was done in the 60's - The MATS plan. Question - how much of it was ever implemented?

As for water, instead of doing billion dollar supply side projects, why dont we develop more demand side plans. The plan of a pipeline from the sewerage works to water the parklands is a brilliant idea. Making every house have some sort of rainwater tank, and recycling. Surely thats the way to go.

[Will409]

From what research I have done, the then RAA rules stipulated that all vehicles must come to a stop behind a tram that was loading/unloading at one of these stops.