[U/C] 88 O'Connell Street | 63m | 13, 13 and 15 Levels | Mixed Use

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Ho Really
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[U/C] Re: #Proposed: 88 O'Connell St (Le Cornu Site) - 6 lvls

#241 Post by Ho Really » Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:29 am

how_good_is_he wrote:JUST TO REMIND SOME PEOPLE - A 12 STOREY BUILDING WAS APPROVED ON THIS SITE IN THE 1980s. FORGET ABOUT DESIGN ETC FOR A MOMENT, WE ARE GOING BACKWARDS WITH OUR HEIGHT RESTRICTIONS THROUGHOUT ADELAIDE WHICH ARE TOO ONEROUS AND SHORT-SIGHTED. From North Adelaide to our beachside suburbs [except Glenelg] why can't we can go more than 3-storeys? I think many people take a very short term approach to what fits in now, its height etc and fail to consider how scarce land will be. Once built, these major developments will likely be around in 100+, 200+ years when our population may be 5m - 10m. So if say New York had this mentality when they had only 1m people and "skyscrapers" were limited to say 20 storeys it would have stifled their potential growth and population forever.
Tall buildings are not always the right solution. North Adelaide is also aligned with the airport's landing flightpath.

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[U/C] Re: #Proposed: 88 O'Connell St (Le Cornu Site) - 6 lvls

#242 Post by Pants » Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:19 am

I think you'll find that the decision to confer major project status to this development was taken by a proactive government looking to take decision making power away from an inept council that has bowed to minority pressure groups and presided over 20 years of inaction on this site.

I'm not one for faux colonial buildings and believe that design wise, much better use could be made of the site, but something had to be done to nullify the influence of the North Adelaide dinosaurs, who if they had their way, would see the site become a rose garden.

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[U/C] Re: #Proposed: 88 O'Connell St (Le Cornu Site) - 6 lvls

#243 Post by stumpjumper » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:15 am

People forget a couple of important points:

1. ACC has actually approved a number of proposals for the site.

2. The organised groups who 'oppose the development' are actually pro development, but within or more or less within the planning guidelines - ie height, floor area, desired future character etc.

The main reason the site hasn't been developed with one of the already approved proposals is that developers think, probably correctly, that the site has the potential for more height, floor area etc than the planning rules allow. That much is true for most sites around Adelaide. The sites of most inner suburban houses could probably carry six or seven stories of unit accommodation which would sell very well. But planning rules, which are generated by the community itself, prevent that happening.

So it's the same with this suburban retail/residential site. The difference is that the state govt, which shouldn't have any involvement with a local shopping centre project other than broad planning regulations, is offering its Major Project status to the developer so that teh community and the local council can be bypassed in order for the developer to over-develop the site in the pursuit of profit.

As I said before, I and a lot of other people who are opposed to the current over the top Makris proposal are well in favour of a development which is more or less in accordance with the existing planning regime. That would allow retail, residential, parking etc. and I suggest a decent profit to the developer.

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[U/C] Re: #Proposed: 88 O'Connell St (Le Cornu Site) - 6 lvls

#244 Post by Ho Really » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:54 am

Pants wrote:...North Adelaide dinosaurs, who if they had their way, would see the site become a rose garden.
Or a forest if it were Greenies. :lol: Which wouldn't be a bad idea considering climate change.

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[U/C] Re: #Proposed: 88 O'Connell St (Le Cornu Site) - 6 lvls

#245 Post by cruel_world00 » Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:47 pm

stumpjumper wrote:People forget a couple of important points:

1. ACC has actually approved a number of proposals for the site.

2. The organised groups who 'oppose the development' are actually pro development, but within or more or less within the planning guidelines - ie height, floor area, desired future character etc.

The main reason the site hasn't been developed with one of the already approved proposals is that developers think, probably correctly, that the site has the potential for more height, floor area etc than the planning rules allow. That much is true for most sites around Adelaide. The sites of most inner suburban houses could probably carry six or seven stories of unit accommodation which would sell very well. But planning rules, which are generated by the community itself, prevent that happening.

So it's the same with this suburban retail/residential site. The difference is that the state govt, which shouldn't have any involvement with a local shopping centre project other than broad planning regulations, is offering its Major Project status to the developer so that teh community and the local council can be bypassed in order for the developer to over-develop the site in the pursuit of profit.

As I said before, I and a lot of other people who are opposed to the current over the top Makris proposal are well in favour of a development which is more or less in accordance with the existing planning regime. That would allow retail, residential, parking etc. and I suggest a decent profit to the developer.


What are you talking about?

"over the top"


What is so over the top about developing an area so close to the CBD with the current plan?

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[U/C] Re: #Proposed: 88 O'Connell St (Le Cornu Site) - 6 lvls

#246 Post by ynotsfables » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:53 pm

urban wrote:It does not take balls to bend over for a developer.

Will, a confident city would have demanded a landmark modern building which was appropriate to the scale, pattern and density of the site. Has any one got pictures of the sculptural glass building on the Champs Elyssses a block away from the Arc de Triomphe?
Why would the Rann government bend over for a developer?
I'm sure he wants something done on that site as well as i do and many others.
Secondly why isn't this building good enough?
If i were to design something of such elegance i would be proud to have it built, and quite offended if people hated it.

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[U/C] Re: #Proposed: 88 O'Connell St (Le Cornu Site) - 6 lvls

#247 Post by AG » Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:59 pm

If anyone would like to know of an existing development that looks very similar to what is planned for the Le Cornu Site, take a look at the Chevron Renaissance on the Gold Coast. The style is remarkable similar (minus the 3 towers around it of course).

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[U/C] Re: #Proposed: 88 O'Connell St (Le Cornu Site) - 6 lvls

#248 Post by stumpjumper » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:20 am

"over the top" - because the building is not just slightly outside but way outside the allowances of the development plan in a number of respects.

"Why would the Rann govt bend over for developers?" - because the issue, to the delight of the Makris group has become political. Apart from bread and circuses, the Rann govt believes in the simple formula that development = votes. So, it bends over.

As for an ad hoc rewriting of the planning rules so that very large developments are allowed on small sites in North Adelaide because North Adelaide is so close to the CBD... why not allow industrial development in West Lakes. It's fairly close to some other industrial sites, after all.

The root cause of the O'Connell St debacle is the historic tendency of local govt to let developers bend the rules. It has become a game of ambit claims for say 100% overdevelopment, followed by argument, leading to people breathing sighs of relief when sites are only 50% overdeveloped. The developer walks away with a super profit, and the community has to put up with not ony a massive construction and its implications for traffic, noise, overshadowing etc, but the precedent set by the overdevelopment in their area.

If you want to see the Le Cornu project finished, btw, go to Auckland and have a look at the Chancery development, fionished in 2002. Site vacant since 1980's, developer takes advantage of public dissatisfaction and rams through with government support a development which exceeds the planning rules. The result is a massive project. It is now generally admitted that the rents were set too high, and the development is still plagued by a high turnover of tenants and vacant shops, especially on the upper levels. A common criticism is that the development was overscaled, adn was not built in response to any actual need for more retail floor space, but was supposed to suck tenants from traditional tenancies in the vicinity. The high rents got in the way of that process. In my opinion something like that is likely to be the future of 88 O'Connell St.

Chancery was designed by Makris's architects, the NZ outfit Ignite. It is identical to the O'Connell Street proposal in many ways, so we are not even getting anything unique - just a rubber stamp of drawings for an underperforming NZ centre. The design team of Grant Harris, Ricky Do and Jeremy Whelan are responsible for the same slottted walls and towers with domes and needles on them. The design style could be called a sort of miniature Las Vegas 1985 meets Portman hotels with a dash of Dubai. Just right for a declared Heritage Conservation Zone in South Australia. But why should those considerations, and the planning rules, apply here? Makris wants a big profit, and the Rann govt senses votes in gettign this development up despite opposition (not to development per se, but to the scale of this particular development which is far outside the planning allowances) from the local residents and the Adelaide City Council.

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[U/C] Re: #Proposed: 88 O'Connell St (Le Cornu Site) - 6 lvls

#249 Post by Wayno » Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:59 am

The current Makris design is far from perfect, but quite frankly the council and nimby's have brought this onto themselves. Do i feel sorry for them - absolutely not! I sincerely hope they learn from this experience

Unfortunately, I believe this situation will repeat ad nauseum over the coming years. Nimby's and minority groups will continue to hamper progress, the ACC (and other metro councils) will fail to bring their "development planning rules" into the 21st century, and the Govt will continue to override by granting major project status to imperfect proposals. A vicious cycle indeed...

And sure, the SA Govt is partly driven by winning votes. However, i'd like to think they are mainly driven by the obvious need to reinvigorate our state (call me gullible if you like). The SA Govt will never know the best design for a major development site, but as we saw with the AdelaideNow "backwater" survey, the sa public are truly fed up and are probably very happy that our State govt chose to act!
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[U/C] Re: #Proposed: 88 O'Connell St (Le Cornu Site) - 6 lvls

#250 Post by Ho Really » Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:55 pm

Wayno wrote:...as we saw with the AdelaideNow "backwater" survey, the sa public are truly fed up and are probably very happy that our State govt chose to act!
Those interstaters (and some here) that call Adelaide a "backwater" are either jealous or immature (maybe even ignorant). :(

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[U/C] Re: #Proposed: 88 O'Connell St (Le Cornu Site) - 6 lvls

#251 Post by Wayno » Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:20 pm

Ho Really wrote:
Wayno wrote:...as we saw with the AdelaideNow "backwater" survey, the sa public are truly fed up and are probably very happy that our State govt chose to act!
Those interstaters (and some here) that call Adelaide a "backwater" are either jealous or immature (maybe even ignorant). :(

Cheers
i believe it's simply a case of temporary ignorance as South Aussies not subscribed to this website have virtually ZERO appreciation about the volume of work-in-progress developments in the CBD and surrounds. I know this was the case with myself before subscribing to this site in Dec 07. But don't worry, all South Aussies will soon see Media Mike on a frequent basis as each new building has its offical opening "champagne and canapes" ceremony - without tax dollars being spent too! :-)
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[U/C] Re: #Proposed: 88 O'Connell St (Le Cornu Site) - 6 lvls

#252 Post by bm7500 » Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:56 pm

This building will bring a re-vitalisation to O'Connell St. I parked ther and walked down to Elder Park for the Aus Day festivities, and at street level, you realise how many of the older building sre starting to look cheap and tacky. This complex is just what the street needs to give its facelift a kick start. It might also be the development that finally convinces a lot of South Australians that we are on our way after finally shaking the mokey off our back.

Lets just get this development approved and start building the F@#king thing!
ADELAIDE SINGAPORE LONDON BERLIN AMSTERDAM PARIS TOKYO AUCKLAND DOHA DUBLIN HONG KONG BANGKOK REYKJAVIK ROME MADRID BUDAPEST COPENHAGEN ZURICH BRUSSELS VIENNA PRAGUE STOCKHOLM LUXEMBOURG BRATISLAVA NASSAU DUBAI BAHRAIN KUALA LUMPUR HELSINKI GENEVA

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[U/C] Re: #Proposed: 88 O'Connell St (Le Cornu Site) - 6 lvls

#253 Post by AtD » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:16 pm

Wayno wrote:The current Makris design is far from perfect, but quite frankly the council and nimby's have brought this onto themselves. Do i feel sorry for them - absolutely not! I sincerely hope they learn from this experience

Unfortunately, I believe this situation will repeat ad nauseum over the coming years. Nimby's and minority groups will continue to hamper progress, the ACC (and other metro councils) will fail to bring their "development planning rules" into the 21st century, and the Govt will continue to override by granting major project status to imperfect proposals. A vicious cycle indeed...

And sure, the SA Govt is partly driven by winning votes. However, i'd like to think they are mainly driven by the obvious need to reinvigorate our state (call me gullible if you like). The SA Govt will never know the best design for a major development site, but as we saw with the AdelaideNow "backwater" survey, the sa public are truly fed up and are probably very happy that our State govt chose to act!
Holdfast Shores being a perfect example of that process.

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[U/C] Re: #Proposed: 88 O'Connell St (Le Cornu Site) - 6 lvls

#254 Post by skyliner » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:50 pm

Wayno wrote:
Ho Really wrote:
Wayno wrote:...as we saw with the AdelaideNow "backwater" survey, the sa public are truly fed up and are probably very happy that our State govt chose to act!
Those interstaters (and some here) that call Adelaide a "backwater" are either jealous or immature (maybe even ignorant). :(

Cheers
i believe it's simply a case of temporary ignorance as South Aussies not subscribed to this website have virtually ZERO appreciation about the volume of work-in-progress developments in the CBD and surrounds. I know this was the case with myself before subscribing to this site in Dec 07. But don't worry, all South Aussies will soon see Media Mike on a frequent basis as each new building has its offical opening "champagne and canapes" ceremony - without tax dollars being spent too! :-)
I have found this the case with many South Aussies when discussing what is happening - even with executives. Like someone else said, I was similar before I joined up on this site (but not for want of trying to get info).This is the greatest place I have found for comprehensive, positive, well informed information (well ahead of planned time of implementation in many cases)
This scenario above is even worse interstate. (as hinted at before this post already). The reputation, often enhanced by South Aussies, is hard to shake - but we will do our bit guys..

On track again, all these efforts at something at 88 O'Connell St have now produced what is planned and no matter whether it looks like other Makris developments, it is still pretty unique in Adelaideand looks good to me.All the barriers before this time have given us a sizeable piece of urban blight - time to get on with it!

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[U/C] Re: #Proposed: 88 O'Connell St (Le Cornu Site) - 6 lvls

#255 Post by stumpjumper » Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:25 pm

The debate over the Le Cornu site has drawn from his inner sanctum the head of the Farrell/Rann state government - yes, the Hon Mike Rann himself has asked his media advisers and speechwriters for a statement on the empty site.

And the announcement written for the great man by his media advisers and writers?

Somehting along the lines of: 'The Le Cornu site must be given Major Project Status and must be built regardless of community and council objections because the empty site has become a SYMBOL OF INACTIVITY IN ADELAIDE.'

What a compelling argument. Coincidentally, it's an argument also used by the Makris Group's media advisers.

Well. Game over. How could you possibly counter such a convincing argument?

Mike Rann's media advisers should know better. They've obviously been sucked in by the propaganda of Makris's media advisers.

Adelaide has over a billion dollars of development approved and under way, most of it more or less complying with planning rules.

To claim that the Le Cornu site is indicative of a dead development scene generally in Adelaide is so patently untrue that defies belief. I have recently heard Rann himself reciting his media advisers' opinion that Adelaide is experiencing a period of unprecendented growth and development, with building applications and approvals at an all time high.

If Rann's media advisers think that this week, then how could they have thought that the Le Cornu site reflected the state of inactivity in Adelaiede last week?

I sense a put up job to help the Makris development along.

Back to Major Projects status.

Can anyone provide a rough guide to the criteria for Major Project status? It's a mystery to me. It doesn't seem to depend on cost, or size, or location. The mechanism was designed for huge infrastrcuture projects such as the Adelaide to Darwing rail link, and the Roxby Downs development, but now, even a proposed local shopping centres can get it.

It reminds me of the old Godfrey's TV ad - Planning Minister Paul Holloway trying to look seductive, saying 'I've got something every developer wants...'

The question is, if there are no quantitative criteria for gaining the coveted prize of Major Project status, then exactly what does a developer have to do, and to whom, to get Major Project status?

An interesting question; as interesting as why, in the opinion of Rann's speechwriter himself, SA doesn't need a standing anti-corruption committee.

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