[COM] Victoria Square Upgrade - $24m

[Wayno]

The solution is simple as! Make Victoria Square a roundabout, either in its current diamond shape form, or by pushing the roads right back to the edges in a rectangular shape. As for anything else design wise - ante up the prize pool. Mega-millions, international standard. Just for this once.

Hey Shuz, my brain is failing to see how one big roundabout would work Are you proposing no traffic lights for all roads entering the square? For example, imagine entering Vic Square traveling north on KWS and then turning right into Flinders St - how would this work without disrupting traffic too much?

[rhino]

It could work the same way Whitmore Square currently works - roads entering the square are effectively "Lead in" to the roundabout via slip lanes, rather than entering at right angles. Similarly, traffic is "lead out" of the roundabout via slip lanes.

Having said that, I'm more in favour of keeping the current diamond and having a cut-and-cover tunnel for Grote/Wakefield Streets at this stage, with the tunnel portals 100m or so back from the square and slip lanes either side to enter King William St. Of course this would make right turns impossible, but I can live with that. Once the tunnel is in, green up the whole square, build an attractive sound shell at the southern end, maybe mound it up and have floral art on the southern side, as it would be a bit of a view block when travelling north along KWS South, and I quite like your spiral tower too Wayno - congrats on that idea. As someone else said, the cafe up there would emphasise the 4 boulevards leading into the square. Keep the fountain too.

[AtD]

The only problem with the roundabout suggestion is it's rather horrid for high pedestrian areas. That being said, the current set up is rather horrid for pedestrians too.

[SRW]

The only problem with the roundabout suggestion is it's rather horrid for high pedestrian areas. That being said, the current set up is rather horrid for pedestrians too.

That's true, but I think only to a degree. Many public places in some of the cities I've been to in Europe are similarly bounded by well-trafficked roads, and they are still vibrant places. People just learn to live with it.

[urban]

While we wait for someone to find the money to do the whole square we should fix all the little things that we can.
For example the small triangular sections at each corner of the square should have the same treatment as the NW corner with the slip roads removed to be replaced by commercial vehicle only access. Council incentives provided to building owners to incorporate retail/cafe/etc tenancies adjacent these spaces preferably with outdoor tables. The Hilton corner would probably need to retain the taxi rank.
Flinders/Franklin Streets could be reduced to one lane each way with generous bike lanes or closed off completely.

[rhino]

Flinders/Franklin Streets could be reduced to one lane each way with generous bike lanes or closed off completely.

Having stated that I am in favour of a cut-and-cover tunnel for Grote/Wakefield Streets, which would mean no right turns, Franklyn/Flinders Streets and Gouger/Angas Streets would be required for right turns, so I don't support your idea quoted above.

That's fine - it's your idea and the more the better.

[urban]

^^^ If you couldn't get to KWS from Grote/Wakefield then you would definitely need the other two thoroughfares. I would hate to see an increase in traffic on Gouger St.
Dream, money no object solution, underground KWS and Grote/Wakefield with standard traffic light intersection below Vic Sq. Close Gouger, Angas, Flinders, Franklin to through traffic leaving us with a big, beautiful oasis/party central in the middle of the city. Now that would make the world sit up and take notice. It would leave Fed Sq looking like a 2-bit backyard makeover.

[Wayno]

^^^ If you couldn't get to KWS from Grote/Wakefield then you would definitely need the other two thoroughfares. I would hate to see an increase in traffic on Gouger St.
Dream, money no object solution, underground KWS and Grote/Wakefield with standard traffic light intersection below Vic Sq. Close Gouger, Angas, Flinders, Franklin to through traffic leaving us with a big, beautiful oasis/party central in the middle of the city. Now that would make the world sit up and take notice. It would leave Fed Sq looking like a 2-bit backyard makeover.

wow - underground the N/S & E/W roadways, that would be soooo cool!

[rhino]

[quote="urban"]^^^ If you couldn't get to KWS from Grote/Wakefield then you would definitely need the other two thoroughfares. I would hate to see an increase in traffic on Gouger St.[quote]

Wouldn't be a problem if Angas/Gouger only carried westbound traffic, and Franklyn/Flinders eastbound.

[Ho Really]

^^^ If you couldn't get to KWS from Grote/Wakefield then you would definitely need the other two thoroughfares. I would hate to see an increase in traffic on Gouger St.

Wouldn't be a problem if Angas/Gouger only carried westbound traffic, and Franklyn/Flinders eastbound.

In the case of no east-west tunnel in Victoria Square your option rhino sounds appealing. Now we have to factor in any possible tram lines.

Cheers

[SRW]

I've been thinking for some while about the Sir Samuel Way Building and what should come of it if a new court complex is ever built on the reserved land behind the Supreme Court building, and the idea which I fancy most is moving the casino into it from the railway station. This would have significant ramifications for the Riverside Precinct (loss of an entertainment venue), but none that, in my opinion, can't be tolerated or even mitigated to some extent (see below). I guess this sort of plays into the debate over whether the city's heart should lie on the banks of the Torrens, or in its geographic centre, Victoria Square.

To expand on the idea a little further: Firstly, I've never really been comfortable with the casino usurping such a grand public building nor that it is sited adjacent to Parliament House. I'd rather see much of the building returned to public use, and indeed, use as part of a functioning station. Obviously, it's a very large building, and it should accommodate some other use, especially to ensure that it remains a popular attraction if the casino vacates. Potential uses could be as a museum or art gallery (museum of modern art, anyone? The AGSA could do with another campus), or it could be an annexe to Parliament House (I hear it's quite crowded) or for offices of the State Government.

Secondly, I think the casino would be great for Victoria Square by bringing a sense of vibrancy that is sadly lacking. The Sir Samuel Way Building is a grand building that would make for very classy casino, and it is conveniently located next to a major hotel. Furthermore, its location would enhance the tourism and growing nightlife (Gouger St) attributes of the area, especially if the Square is itself redeveloped with this in mind.

Thoughts?

[Will]

^^^SRW, I understand where you are coming from. After coming back from a trip to Sydney and seeing the Queen Victoria Shopping Centre, I am confident the Sir Samuel Way Building could be converted too. However I disagree that the casino should be set up there. The Casino is practically the reason why there is nightlife around that part of North Terrace at night and thus moving it would crush the businesses around North Terrace; including the major hotels around there. I think a better outcome would be if the Sir Samuel Way building was converted into a shopping centre. Sell it to Westfiled or something, or move Harbourtown there.

[Hoops]

^^^SRW, I understand where you are coming from. After coming back from a trip to Sydney and seeing the Queen Victoria Shopping Centre, I am confident the Sir Samuel Way Building could be converted too. However I disagree that the casino should be set up there. The Casino is practically the reason why there is nightlife around that part of North Terrace at night and thus moving it would crush the businesses around North Terrace; including the major hotels around there. I think a better outcome would be if the Sir Samuel Way building was converted into a shopping centre. Sell it to Westfiled or something, or move Harbourtown there.

I think the casino wouldn't be too happy/willing to move either I think alot of there business is the flow on from hindley street.
Victoria square to most that have had a few from rundle mall or hindley street is quite a walk...

Out of interest How is Harbourtown staying Out of huge debt? theres a ton of stores all with about 1-2 people on and there selling stuff cheaply... but there doesn't seem to be that many customers?

[Wayno]

<snip>
Out of interest How is Harbourtown staying Out of huge debt? theres a ton of stores all with about 1-2 people on and there selling stuff cheaply... but there doesn't seem to be that many customers?

You're dead right Hoops, a friend of mine has a shop at Harbourtown and he's barely scraping along - not the best class of shopper either - lots of attempted theft...

[Hoops]

<snip>
Out of interest How is Harbourtown staying Out of huge debt? theres a ton of stores all with about 1-2 people on and there selling stuff cheaply... but there doesn't seem to be that many customers?

You're dead right Hoops, a friend of mine has a shop at Harbourtown and he's barely scraping along - not the best class of shopper either - lots of attempted theft...

Well I got convinced to go to Harbourtown by some friends for 3rd time ever..Yesterday First time didn't buy a single thing(nor did 2 others was with) second time Bought 2 tops for $30..(with one friend she bought nothing) Yesterday 2 eager friends who had been like once before.. I spent like $30 they spent combined like $30...

All 3 times I went there was by far my staff on in the stores combined then shoppers...perhaps 2x 3x as many

Don't know if I'm the norm/average but each time Ive gone with at least one girl.(stereotypical to shop more)
Average spend of 8 People was roughly $10 and that was at all different shops.

I know one time that I went the Cheap electrics store that advertises Tv's /Dvds Had Neither....not a single unit of either for sale.

But just my 2c (In my first post I posted "How is Harbourtown staying Out of huge debt? " By that I mean the shops collabaratively)Before someone corrects me/missunderstands me