News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

[Bulldozer]

I'm all for putting together a Sensationa Adelaide issue paper or something that can be circulated to the media and public about the appalling state of SA's rail system. Photos, maps, facts and figures, comparisons and a future vision or two.

Some of Will's photos of track conditions and a calculation of the difference that a good line and modern electric trains would make to commute times would surely have to embarrass the government into action. It's like they're counting on people not to know just how bad the situation is.

Just imagine a front page of the Saturday Advertiser with a photo of rotten sleepers on a wonky weed-infested line with the headline "DEATHTRAP"!

[monotonehell]

Just imagine a front page of the Saturday Advertiser with a photo of rotten sleepers on a wonky weed-infested line with the headline "DEATHTRAP"!

They run an article like that most weekends in the Sunday Mail under their "Fix It Pat" banner.
BUT I think a SENSATIONALADELAIDE submission could on the whole be more constructive in its criticism than the Sunday Mail's traditional popularist approach. As well as offer alternatives with their associated pros and cons.

[Wayno]

Just imagine a front page of the Saturday Advertiser with a photo of rotten sleepers on a wonky weed-infested line with the headline "DEATHTRAP"!

They run an article like that most weekends in the Sunday Mail under their "Fix It Pat" banner.
BUT I think a SENSATIONALADELAIDE submission could on the whole be more constructive in its criticism than the Sunday Mail's traditional popularist approach. As well as offer alternatives with their associated pros and cons.

few questions we need to clarify before considering a submission:

• * who is the audience for the submission?
  * what are our key messages?
  * what are our recommendations? what do we want to happen?
  * Would we consider including suggestions about converting rail lines to dedicated bus-lanes, light-rail, etc?

Lastly, perhaps would be best if the submission document following a similar layout & style to the ACC Adelaide 2030 submission (intro, exec summary, followed by several sections such as; Rollingstock, Gawler line, Belair line, etc...)

[Bulldozer]

few questions we need to clarify before considering a submission:

• * who is the audience for the submission?
  * what are our key messages?
  * what are our recommendations? what do we want to happen?
  * Would we consider including suggestions about converting rail lines to dedicated bus-lanes, light-rail, etc?

I would think it would be for anybody. You should just be able to pick it up and see at a glance how crap the status quo is - perhaps a single double-sided A4 summary to complement a more detailed report/paper that explains things in more detail would be good to grab attention and easy to distribute to the public at stations or something if it goes that far.

I don't think it should cover anything other than heavy rail, because that is the true backbone of any public transport system. Perhaps the only non-rail thing it would cover is how it integrates with other modes of transportation and the replacement of the O-Bahn with rail.

At a minimum, I would cover the following (because most people here think along the same lines):

• * Gauge conversion, if there are distinct advantages to it
  * Re-sleepering, drainage, track maintenance
  * Grade separation of level crossings, elimination of Noarlunga/Interstate junction
  * Electrification, new rolling stock
  * Station consolidation and upgrades
  * Extending Noarlunga & Tonsley lines, possibly other lines.
  * Potential for creation of new lines or spurs - replacing O-Bahn with rail.
  * Frequency of service - signaling, issues with terminating central station - do we create a through-running subway underneath it or abandon it for suburban services and create a new through-running central under Victoria Square?)

I'd also talk about the trend for increasing population density and the role in alleviating congestion that rail will play in the future as well as the need to "overbuild" from today's perspective so that the system can handle the passenger volumes in 50-100 years. Mention the capacity of a rail line compared to a freeway.

Perhaps Sensational Adelaide could collaborate with Rail Page on this? The members of that forum are no doubt a gold mine of information about Adelaide's rail system and railways in general.

Lastly, perhaps would be best if the submission document following a similar layout & style to the ACC Adelaide 2030 submission

Totally, if we get into the habit of putting together position papers or whatever then they should all use the same design.

[Will409]

I do agree that if we are going to get this submission paper off the ground, we should cooperate with another forum but I don't exactly think that Railpage is the best option (and I have been a member there since 2004). While it may be the biggest, there is some 'member politics' as well as a generally conservative attitude (in the SA forum no less). I am not saying it shouldn't be used at all but I do think there is a better website. Some may see this as a bit of a plug but it is my personal recommendation if we are going to get this off the ground.

http://www.railsa.org

As it's name suggests, it's focus is almost entirely based with SA in mind where as Railpage is nationally focussed. Railsa is also a little bit more forward looking and it is possible to raise a proposal there without being shot in the foot straight away. A couple of the members are both locomotive drivers and while not employed with TransAdelaide as such, one of them does drive the once daily stone train on the Gawler Central line so he know's first hand what the track condition is like. There are also a couple of Gawler line commuters in addition to myself on there so it is worth having a look in. Just my suggestion anyway.

[Norman]

I do agree that if we are going to get this submission paper off the ground, we should cooperate with another forum but I don't exactly think that Railpage is the best option (and I have been a member there since 2004). While it may be the biggest, there is some 'member politics' as well as a generally conservative attitude (in the SA forum no less). I am not saying it shouldn't be used at all but I do think there is a better website. Some may see this as a bit of a plug but it is my personal recommendation if we are going to get this off the ground.

http://www.railsa.org

As it's name suggests, it's focus is almost entirely based with SA in mind where as Railpage is nationally focussed. Railsa is also a little bit more forward looking and it is possible to raise a proposal there without being shot in the foot straight away. A couple of the members are both locomotive drivers and while not employed with TransAdelaide as such, one of them does drive the once daily stone train on the Gawler Central line so he know's first hand what the track condition is like. There are also a couple of Gawler line commuters in addition to myself on there so it is worth having a look in. Just my suggestion anyway.

It also has a lot more uptime than Railpage

[Wayno]

few questions we need to clarify before considering a submission:

• * who is the audience for the submission?
  * what are our key messages?
  * what are our recommendations? what do we want to happen?
  * Would we consider including suggestions about converting rail lines to dedicated bus-lanes, light-rail, etc?

I would think it would be for anybody. You should just be able to pick it up and see at a glance how crap the status quo is - perhaps a single double-sided A4 summary to complement a more detailed report/paper that explains things in more detail would be good to grab attention and easy to distribute to the public at stations or something if it goes that far.

I don't think it should cover anything other than heavy rail, because that is the true backbone of any public transport system. Perhaps the only non-rail thing it would cover is how it integrates with other modes of transportation and the replacement of the O-Bahn with rail.

At a minimum, I would cover the following (because most people here think along the same lines):

• * Gauge conversion, if there are distinct advantages to it
  * Re-sleepering, drainage, track maintenance
  * Grade separation of level crossings, elimination of Noarlunga/Interstate junction
  * Electrification, new rolling stock
  * Station consolidation and upgrades
  * Extending Noarlunga & Tonsley lines, possibly other lines.
  * Potential for creation of new lines or spurs - replacing O-Bahn with rail.
  * Frequency of service - signaling, issues with terminating central station - do we create a through-running subway underneath it or abandon it for suburban services and create a new through-running central under Victoria Square?)

I'd also talk about the trend for increasing population density and the role in alleviating congestion that rail will play in the future as well as the need to "overbuild" from today's perspective so that the system can handle the passenger volumes in 50-100 years. Mention the capacity of a rail line compared to a freeway.

Perhaps Sensational Adelaide could collaborate with Rail Page on this? The members of that forum are no doubt a gold mine of information about Adelaide's rail system and railways in general.

Lastly, perhaps would be best if the submission document following a similar layout & style to the ACC Adelaide 2030 submission

Totally, if we get into the habit of putting together position papers or whatever then they should all use the same design.

So is the goal of the submission to simply make the govt realize that 1200 people (S-A members) know quite a lot of detail about the flaws/risks/dangers in the current rail system, and want change to occur? or something else?

[Bulldozer]

So is the goal of the submission to simply make the govt realize that 1200 people (S-A members) know quite a lot of detail about the flaws/risks/dangers in the current rail system, and want change to occur? or something else

For a fat and comprehensive paper that would be good. I'm more keen on the idea of a single page fact-sheet or brochure or whatever with easily digestible facts and figures with a pointer to the full thing. The idea is to get it out to busy, influential people who don't want to read through a big document and just want to cut to the chase. If it sparks their interest then they can get the whole document to get all the fine details.

E.g. Journalists (at least the type that work for News Ltd) are idiots - slip them a fact sheet and they can quickly bash out a sensationalist story without having to wade through a large document and get all confused with the things in it.

The single page thing would also lend itself to making the general public aware of how bad the situation is and how great it could be. There's a hell of a lot of people out there who never travel, there are many who have never been beyond their side of Adelaide even! These people have no concept of how Adelaide stacks up to other places in the world. Most know the rail system is shithouse because the 'Tiser told them so, but do they know how it compares to others? If you asked 1,000 people in the street what they know about the rail system and how it could be improved, how many of them would have an informed opinion? (Now how many would know what/who Paris Hilton did last night? )

It could be as simple as showing how Adelaide's rail system compares to Perth or Brisbane's (similarly populated cities) in terms of speed of travel and the frequency and amenity of services. Point out the bottlenecks in the system and how big the improvements would be after eliminating them. There could be a table showing current travel times from stations to the city via train, bus and car and how much quicker a proposed plan would make it. Ask the question of why you'd want to put up with the hassle and expense of driving into the city and finding a car park when you could drive to your local station and catch a fast train that departs every five or ten minutes.

It could point out the benefits to motorists of grade-separating level crossings. Stoppages in heavy traffic create a ripple of stoppage that propagates away from the original location and slows the flow of traffic for long after the original stoppage has cleared. (There's probably a video or animation of this effect on YouTube)

[Wayno]

So is the goal of the submission to simply make the govt realize that 1200 people (S-A members) know quite a lot of detail about the flaws/risks/dangers in the current rail system, and want change to occur? or something else

For a fat and comprehensive paper that would be good. I'm more keen on the idea of a single page fact-sheet or brochure or whatever with easily digestible facts and figures with a pointer to the full thing. The idea is to get it out to busy, influential people who don't want to read through a big document and just want to cut to the chase. If it sparks their interest then they can get the whole document to get all the fine details.

E.g. Journalists (at least the type that work for News Ltd) are idiots - slip them a fact sheet and they can quickly bash out a sensationalist story without having to wade through a large document and get all confused with the things in it.

The single page thing would also lend itself to making the general public aware of how bad the situation is and how great it could be. There's a hell of a lot of people out there who never travel, there are many who have never been beyond their side of Adelaide even! These people have no concept of how Adelaide stacks up to other places in the world. Most know the rail system is shithouse because the 'Tiser told them so, but do they know how it compares to others? If you asked 1,000 people in the street what they know about the rail system and how it could be improved, how many of them would have an informed opinion? (Now how many would know what/who Paris Hilton did last night? )

It could be as simple as showing how Adelaide's rail system compares to Perth or Brisbane's (similarly populated cities) in terms of speed of travel and the frequency and amenity of services. Point out the bottlenecks in the system and how big the improvements would be after eliminating them. There could be a table showing current travel times from stations to the city via train, bus and car and how much quicker a proposed plan would make it. Ask the question of why you'd want to put up with the hassle and expense of driving into the city and finding a car park when you could drive to your local station and catch a fast train that departs every five or ten minutes.

It could point out the benefits to motorists of grade-separating level crossings. Stoppages in heavy traffic create a ripple of stoppage that propagates away from the original location and slows the flow of traffic for long after the original stoppage has cleared. (There's probably a video or animation of this effect on YouTube)

bulldozer, will409, are you interested in pulling together a 1-page fact sheet? I still have 2 concerns though:
1) are we happy to put out an S-A document that has negative overtones? Need input from howie's and others here. The other S-A submissions done to date are focused on positive opportunities and fostering win-win situations. Of course if you can write a 1-page fact sheet from a win-win perspective then fantastic!
2) how will the fact-sheet be distributed?

[Will409]

I'd be more then happy to contribute photos and information to the fact sheet. However, I think we should try and highlight the various issues and then offer various solutions to them. Perhaps we should also provide contact details to people such as the State Transport Minister, the Premier and the Opposition Leader. Let the people be heard!

As for distribution, what about setting setting up stands at various railway stations where possible.

[Norman]

I'd be more then happy to contribute photos and information to the fact sheet. However, I think we should try and highlight the various issues and then offer various solutions to them. Perhaps we should also provide contact details to people such as the State Transport Minister, the Premier and the Opposition Leader. Let the people be heard!

As for distribution, what about setting setting up stands at various railway stations where possible.

I'd be willing to help in the distribution on the Noarlunga and Grange lines.

[Wayno]

I'd be more then happy to contribute photos and information to the fact sheet. However, I think we should try and highlight the various issues and then offer various solutions to them. Perhaps we should also provide contact details to people such as the State Transport Minister, the Premier and the Opposition Leader. Let the people be heard!
<snip>

hey will409, independent of how and when to distribute a fact sheet, it would still be great if you could pull one together. I'm sure we'll send the info on it public at some point - so we might as well start collecting/collating at your convenience. We definitely can't waste all your superb railway knowledge

[monotonehell]

I'd be more then happy to contribute photos and information to the fact sheet. However, I think we should try and highlight the various issues and then offer various solutions to them. Perhaps we should also provide contact details to people such as the State Transport Minister, the Premier and the Opposition Leader. Let the people be heard!

As for distribution, what about setting setting up stands at various railway stations where possible.

good man! could you collaborate with a few other rail-geeks on a fact-sheet please. Probably no dire urgency as we don't have any fixed deadlines to work towards (unless you want to generate impact in advance of the SA budget in June). This fact sheet will also be a good education for many S-A members (including myself)!

Anyone see any problems with the general direction here?

I think you need to rethink what you're doing. Firstly what are you trying to achieve? Distribution at railway stations sounds like preaching to the converted to me. Most commuters are well aware that the system is suffering from neglect. The fact that some of them might not know that things can be better isn't really a great reason to go to the trouble of distributing such a document. And once you've distributed such a document, then what? Where do they take their concerns from there? Would the document suggest to them what to do next? Or will it just end up in the bin as a dead end exercise.

I'm not 100% sure but I think that you're going about this wrong.

[Cruise]

The best way to avoid the problems of the rail system is to drive everywhere instead

[rubberman]

Yeah Cruise - like up and down South Road for example?

The road system is just as neglected as the rail system.

And the water supply.

I shudder to think about power.

The economic rationalists saved a real heap of money in the nineties by not doing anything didn't they?