News & Discussion: Trams

[Shuz]

I think an two important factors to the sucess of the German automotive industry is because they have a huge establishment of freeway networks, a large car manufactoring sector which means that thier dependancy on the car is still strong, even with high petrol prices because they are rewarded with a solid investment into the automotive industry.

Australia isn't.

[Omicron]

I think an two important factors to the sucess of the German automotive industry is because they have a huge establishment of freeway networks, a large car manufactoring sector which means that thier dependancy on the car is still strong, even with high petrol prices because they are rewarded with a solid investment into the automotive industry.

Australia isn't.

I'd hazard a guess that the Australian motor vehicle manufacturing industry (and its associated suppliers) is still a significant contributor to GDP and employment - were Toyota, Holden and Ford to cease operations in Australia, the ramifications would be quite, quite serious. We're not about to reduce our dependency on cars any time soon.

[Ho Really]

What we need are more tram lines...one of my tram visions ( http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/37/tramnetzcl1.jpg ) 4-5 cross city tram lines each making a stop at Rundle Mall and Pirie St.

We could stop calling it "The Tram" and call it line 1 or line 2 etc etc...

Most of your suggested lines are too long for trams with so many stops. Even the existing Glenelg line is sitting just beyond the optimum length of a tram service. Trams should be short runs with many stops, interfacing with the urban mesh (as one of our members is apt to say). Trains should be long runs with few stops, concentrated on moving people from one centre to another. Buses should be short runs across suburban sprawl, dynamically altering their routes to match need. Obahns should link near-distant sprawl with centres where appropriate. Train lines should be fed with buses from sprawl at far-distant points where appropriate.

We need to use each PT type where it works the best.

Monotonehell, I agree. No tram up Port Road.

Cheers

[monotonehell]

What we need are more tram lines...one of my tram visions ( http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/37/tramnetzcl1.jpg ) 4-5 cross city tram lines each making a stop at Rundle Mall and Pirie St.

We could stop calling it "The Tram" and call it line 1 or line 2 etc etc...

Most of your suggested lines are too long for trams with so many stops. Even the existing Glenelg line is sitting just beyond the optimum length of a tram service. Trams should be short runs with many stops, interfacing with the urban mesh (as one of our members is apt to say). Trains should be long runs with few stops, concentrated on moving people from one centre to another. Buses should be short runs across suburban sprawl, dynamically altering their routes to match need. Obahns should link near-distant sprawl with centres where appropriate. Train lines should be fed with buses from sprawl at far-distant points where appropriate.

We need to use each PT type where it works the best.

Monotonehell, I agree. No tram up Port Road.

Cheers

While technically I did not say that. I suppose my argument would negate a tram all the way up Port Road, and if there were a tram part the way up Port road people would scream for it to go all the way.

[Shuz]

Why can't people see the idea of a tram along Port Road being used as an interim service, essentially just to replace the bus services that run along Port Road. Whilst I agree that it seems a bit ludicrous to travel from the Port to the City via a 40 minute tram trip, when you have a 20 minute train service adjacent. It's service would be used primarily to assist the locals along the route, for those wishing to go from Woodville to West Lakes, or from Port Adelaide to Semaphore, or from the City to Hindmarsh, you get the idea. I think that there would be enough patronage to make such an option feasible.

On another positive note, doing so would enable the availability of more buses to service other areas that are in desperate need of PT connections.

Win-win for all I believe.

[monotonehell]

Why can't people see the idea of a tram along Port Road being used as an interim service, essentially just to replace the bus services that run along Port Road...

Because a tram is on tracks, only two of the bus routes that go up Port road go all the way to Port Adelaide. All the others turn off at Hindmarsh, West Lakes Boulevard and Hendon. They all serve suburban areas away from Port Road. A tram can not replace 7 bus routes.

[Norman]

But if trams do spur development, the Port Road precinct could get a major boost for commercial and residential properties, increasing density.

Back in Germany I saw many examples where a new tram/light rail lines spurred medium density residential developments, even though it was 15km out of the city.

[rhino]

Why can't people see the idea of a tram along Port Road being used as an interim service, essentially just to replace the bus services that run along Port Road...

Because a tram is on tracks, only two of the bus routes that go up Port road go all the way to Port Adelaide. All the others turn off at Hindmarsh, West Lakes Boulevard and Hendon. They all serve suburban areas away from Port Road. A tram can not replace 7 bus routes.

Further to that, as I have mentioned before, Port Road is actually too wide for a tram route (yes, too wide). There are crossovers at regular intervals, and these crossovers are long enough in their own right to require some sort of safety level crossing where the tramline crosses them. That all ads to the expense of the line. If the median was narrower, like, say, Anzac Highway, the tramline would be obvious to drivers wanting to turn across it. The width of the Port Road median means that it requires extra expensive infrastructure. An alternative would be to run two seperate tram corridors, along each edge of the median in the direction of traffic flow, but two tram corridors means a lot more infrastructure too.

[Shuz]

Why can't people see the idea of a tram along Port Road being used as an interim service, essentially just to replace the bus services that run along Port Road...

Because a tram is on tracks, only two of the bus routes that go up Port road go all the way to Port Adelaide. All the others turn off at Hindmarsh, West Lakes Boulevard and Hendon. They all serve suburban areas away from Port Road. A tram can not replace 7 bus routes.

Try me.

West Lakes
155 - City to West Lakes - via Port Road and West Lakes Boulevard.
156 - City to Port Adelaide (via West Lakes) - via Port Road, West Lakes Boulevard, Military, First, Sansom and Bower Roads.
157 - City to Largs Bay (via West Lakes) - via Port Road, West Lakes Boulevard, Military, First, Sansom, Bower Roads.

A tramline essentially would follow the same route along Port Road and West Lakes Boulevard to terminate at West Lakes Mall. Connecting buses for 156 & 157 services to respective destinations.

Port Adelaide
150 - City to Osbourne - via Port Road, Commercial Road, Nelson, Fletcher and Victoria Roads.
153 - City to Port Adelaide - via Port Road & Commercial Road.

Tramline services same route along Port & Commercial Roads. Would propose to either scrap the 153 service, or replace with connecting bus to Osbourne.

That would be the basis plan for the 'direct' buses. Alternative routes, changes and modifications to 115, 117, 231 routes may be required.

Given the investment put into such a route, with underpasses where required, I would put an estimate to $350m for the project. With the continuation of development and investment into the West Lakes and Port Adelaide regions, the economical return in a decade would surpass its initial cost.

[monotonehell]

So you're suggesting two lines; one to Port Adelaide and another to West Lakes Mall? And then bus feeder services to a tram?

You shouldn't feed one frequent stop service into another. People hate transfers already, transferring onto an express service helps ease that pain. That's the job of a train or an obahn. You also shouldn't replace one frequent stop service with another. That's just trading one slow service for another slow service.

Both Port Adelaide and West Lakes are just outside the ideal radius for a frequent stop tram service anyway (less than a half hour travel time is best - Glenelg is also just outside best practice but could be improved with separated grade).

Your idea is very borderline in terms of functionality. I don't see any real advantage to it over the current buses.

[Cruise]

I don't see any real advantage to it over the current buses.

what shuz is saying is trams look cool

[bdm]

I don't like the idea of a tramline to the port. It doesn't make sense -- there is already a railway there and it would cost less to spruik it up than to build a tramway! Why not a branch line to West Lakes and the upgrading of all the stations?

[AtD]

I agree with all of monotonehell's sentiments, which conclude that heavy rail is the answer.

[shiftaling]

[quote="Düsseldorfer"]What we need are more tram lines...one of my tram visions ( http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/37/tramnetzcl1.jpg ) 4-5 cross city tram lines each making a stop at Rundle Mall and Pirie St.

I love your idea for a metropolitan tram network! I always thought that Henley Beach and Prospect were ideal candidates for tram destinations. My only worry is all of the feeder lines coming into King William St. People are already complaining that the trams are too crowded from only a 200m extension. Perhaps the lines could go down different streets in the city as they do in Melbourne - Adelaide's similar grid layout would certainly suit that. But they would have to do some serious traffic planning and bypass routes to divert traffic off of those streets.
Incidentally and unrelated, the idea of staggering working hours for office staff in the city could help the traffic congestion - with the help of major employers. What do people think to that idea? I heard they floated the concept in Melb.

[monotonehell]

I agree with all of monotonehell's sentiments, which conclude that heavy rail is the answer.

I know! I was more surprised than you

Well it's either that or an OBahn! *blows OBahn heralding trumpet*

But seriously light rail would be fine - just with limited stops.