PRO: Port Adelaide Tramline | $260m

[cleverick]

Granted. But let's accept that it's going to take several decades to build all the trains we need (not to mention start re-organising our city along more PT-friendly lines)- then we have to get started today, or we actually will become a third world city with a dual economy, slums, subsistence farming in what is now the outer suburbs...
This is a real threat. If people who live in Aldinga cannot get to work in Adelaide- there is nothing for them. We need solutions soon, and plans now.

Besides, oil is only price inelastic in the short term. Since the price will stay this high and higher for several years, that's ample time for people to adjust to getting up 20 minutes earlier to catch a bus, or ride their bike. (Which is, of course, the other, slightly less versitile, alternative to cars.)

[monotonehell]

Granted. But let's accept that it's going to take several decades to build all the trains we need (not to mention start re-organising our city along more PT-friendly lines)- then we have to get started today, or we actually will become a third world city with a dual economy, slums, subsistence farming in what is now the outer suburbs...
This is a real threat. If people who live in Aldinga cannot get to work in Adelaide- there is nothing for them. We need solutions soon, and plans now.

Besides, oil is only price inelastic in the short term. Since the price will stay this high and higher for several years, that's ample time for people to adjust to getting up 20 minutes earlier to catch a bus, or ride their bike. (Which is, of course, the other, slightly less versitile, alternative to cars.)

While you're somewhat on the ball with what you've said above, you've been generalising a lot. For example not everyone works in Adelaide. Some people who live in Aldinga also work in Aldinga and so on. Living close to where you work is a good idea, so people do need services outside this arbitrary boundary you've demarcated.

[AtD]

Only 20% of jobs in the metro are in the CBD.
http://www.planning.sa.gov.au/files/JTW-ASD-DZN.pdf

[fishinajar]

Only 20% of jobs in the metro are in the CBD.
http://www.planning.sa.gov.au/files/JTW-ASD-DZN.pdf

Maybe this needs to change also?

If more of the metro area had a higher density, more transport lines would be appropriate, be they right of way or shared tram/ road lanes. If more of the work, education and recreation opportunities were based in the city, a simple cbd spoke wheel design would work brilliantly.

Maybe some sort of outer circle line may be required also?

[AG]

Only 20% of jobs in the metro are in the CBD.
http://www.planning.sa.gov.au/files/JTW-ASD-DZN.pdf

Maybe this needs to change also?

If more of the metro area had a higher density, more transport lines would be appropriate, be they right of way or shared tram/ road lanes. If more of the work, education and recreation opportunities were based in the city, a simple cbd spoke wheel design would work brilliantly.

Maybe some sort of outer circle line may be required also?

The issue with having so many jobs concentrated in one area is that the areas furtherest away from the commercial hubs are at a greater disadvantage socially and economically than those who have close easy access to them. The ideal city model of one CBD and suburbs around it is outdated thinking. There shouldn't be a focus on having one major commercial and business centre, but several located around the metropolitan area. This is a multi-foci centre type model, where cities don't have one CBD, but several. These commerical centres have direct transport links into the surrounding districts, and also direct links to the other commercial centres. Hence some suburbs have direct access by public transport into several major commercial centres and other surrounding districts.

Tokyo probably had to be the best example I am aware of that uses this multi-foci approach. The central Tokyo area has several major commercial districts at Shinjuku, Shibuya, Marunouchi, Akihabara and Ginza/Shiodome as well as smaller ones at Ikebukuro and Ueno. All of them are served by major railway lines linking them into the surrounding districts and suburbs, and all of them are linked together by the JR Yamanote Line, which is a continuous loop that runs 35km around central Tokyo, as well as the Chuo Line which provides a local and express link between Marunouchi and Shinjuku. The one major issue that Tokyo faces with providing transport for this type of setup is that the links between these commercial centres are way over capacity (the Yamanote Line is the world's busiest railway line and Shinjuku is the world's busiest train station, both handling over 3 million people per day on average).

[Cruise]

yeah i like this idea, lets move all industry into he city, May i propose moving the O & I glass bottle factory from it's current location on port road to the railyards?

[mm42]

Sea level rise ? While it's wonderful for the SA government to be planning a tram service to the Port Adelaide and West Lakes area to improve transport and stimulate transit-oriented development, has there been any consideration of the effects of global warming on assets close to our current sea levels ? On Google Earth, anything from Thebarton west is only 5-8 m above sea level. Should the Greenland ice sheet melt, this would push up sea levels by (I believe) 6m, and West Antarctica a further 6m. For relatively small sea level rises, assets could be proctected by a sea wall, but when ice sheet melting happens in earnest, much the Adelaide would go under water.

[Düsseldorfer]

Sea level rise ? While it's wonderful for the SA government to be planning a tram service to the Port Adelaide and West Lakes area to improve transport and stimulate transit-oriented development, has there been any consideration of the effects of global warming on assets close to our current sea levels ? On Google Earth, anything from Thebarton west is only 5-8 m above sea level. Should the Greenland ice sheet melt, this would push up sea levels by (I believe) 6m, and West Antarctica a further 6m. For relatively small sea level rises, assets could be proctected by a sea wall, but when ice sheet melting happens in earnest, much the Adelaide would go under water.

and 99% of the Netherlands too will be underwater

[Pat28]

Simple solution to stop the ice melting - move to the Hills, but getting there would be a problem: crap Public Transport like the rest of Adelaide

[Norman]

Simple solution to stop the ice melting - move to the Hills, but getting there would be a problem: crap Public Transport like the rest of Adelaide

I'd say Hügel instead of Berge, and it's Busse, not Bussen, and definitely not Busen

[Omicron]

Sea level rise ? While it's wonderful for the SA government to be planning a tram service to the Port Adelaide and West Lakes area to improve transport and stimulate transit-oriented development, has there been any consideration of the effects of global warming on assets close to our current sea levels ? On Google Earth, anything from Thebarton west is only 5-8 m above sea level. Should the Greenland ice sheet melt, this would push up sea levels by (I believe) 6m, and West Antarctica a further 6m. For relatively small sea level rises, assets could be proctected by a sea wall, but when ice sheet melting happens in earnest, much the Adelaide would go under water.

I can't wait for that to happen, because then Glengowrie will become a beachside suburb!

[Norman]

Sea level rise ? While it's wonderful for the SA government to be planning a tram service to the Port Adelaide and West Lakes area to improve transport and stimulate transit-oriented development, has there been any consideration of the effects of global warming on assets close to our current sea levels ? On Google Earth, anything from Thebarton west is only 5-8 m above sea level. Should the Greenland ice sheet melt, this would push up sea levels by (I believe) 6m, and West Antarctica a further 6m. For relatively small sea level rises, assets could be proctected by a sea wall, but when ice sheet melting happens in earnest, much the Adelaide would go under water.

I can't wait for that to happen, because then Glengowrie will become a beachside suburb!

And the trams can become our ferries.

[fishinajar]

Only 20% of jobs in the metro are in the CBD.
http://www.planning.sa.gov.au/files/JTW-ASD-DZN.pdf

Maybe this needs to change also?

If more of the metro area had a higher density, more transport lines would be appropriate, be they right of way or shared tram/ road lanes. If more of the work, education and recreation opportunities were based in the city, a simple cbd spoke wheel design would work brilliantly.

Maybe some sort of outer circle line may be required also?

The issue with having so many jobs concentrated in one area is that the areas furtherest away from the commercial hubs are at a greater disadvantage socially and economically than those who have close easy access to them. The ideal city model of one CBD and suburbs around it is outdated thinking. There shouldn't be a focus on having one major commercial and business centre, but several located around the metropolitan area. This is a multi-foci centre type model, where cities don't have one CBD, but several. These commerical centres have direct transport links into the surrounding districts, and also direct links to the other commercial centres. Hence some suburbs have direct access by public transport into several major commercial centres and other surrounding districts.

Tokyo probably had to be the best example I am aware of that uses this multi-foci approach. The central Tokyo area has several major commercial districts at Shinjuku, Shibuya, Marunouchi, Akihabara and Ginza/Shiodome as well as smaller ones at Ikebukuro and Ueno. All of them are served by major railway lines linking them into the surrounding districts and suburbs, and all of them are linked together by the JR Yamanote Line, which is a continuous loop that runs 35km around central Tokyo, as well as the Chuo Line which provides a local and express link between Marunouchi and Shinjuku. The one major issue that Tokyo faces with providing transport for this type of setup is that the links between these commercial centres are way over capacity (the Yamanote Line is the world's busiest railway line and Shinjuku is the world's busiest train station, both handling over 3 million people per day on average).

Each of these "hubs" would still need to be fed from their surrounding areas. There is nothing wrong with this idea, infact I agree with it, if there is a big enough population [number and density] to require and utilise it.

Adelaide is just getting to a point now were we can get an efficient radial feed system working with more frequent services to the cbd. The cbd still has far more potential for much greater occupancy, residential and commercial. Even the furthest suburban points are well within reach with an effective transport system.

Tokyo has a population far more numerous and dense than ours, and (stretching my geographical knowledge/ taking an educated guess here) larger in area than Adelaide. Adelaide could certainly not support multiple light/ heavy rail systems radially feeding multiple hubs at this time, nor any time in any of our lifetimes I would be willing to bet.

There is certainly a place however for centres such as Nourlunga, Marion, Modbury, Westlakes, Port Adelaide, Salisbury, Munno Parra to have a higher density of retail and commercial space as well as higher density residential occupancy-especially if placed along cbd oriented transport corridors.

[cleverick]

monotonehell,
I appreciate your comment. But think carefully about my (slightly more detailed) proposal. Subject to a range of conditions I'm not qualified to prescribe or judge, the jobs in Aldinga would move as well, or Aldinga would become a village (a small town outside Adelaide's urban boundary, but served with the same services). Thus in either case the person who works close to where he or she lives would be safe.
AG & fishinajar,
I direct you to my earlier posts about shrinking the urban boundary and having several CBDs on the Adelaide plains. Elizabeth (industry), Noarlunga (industry), Marion (commercial, but knock down the mall), and Glenelg (tourist resort) were all on my list. However, distinct from your plans, I did not envisage surrounding districts. I envisaged surrounding farmsteads. This would justify it, I feel, as population would be so dense that there would be sufficient inter-city traffic to justify frequent PT. My examples were people who live in Glenelg working in Noarlunga, or a football team from Marion playing at an oval in Elizabeth.
I can accept perhaps a need/desire for suburbs, and something like Mile End, serviced by a connector bus similar to North Adelaide's, would be socially, environmentally and economically efficient. But any further out, and you start multiplying problems for limited marginal gain. (Each 'CBD' would have its own single row of suburb, which in turn would give way to farms/national park.)

How does this relate to the Port Adelaide Tram Line? I think it should go down Port Road rather than double-up with the existing OH line, I think Port Adelaide should be a Harbour City like Hamburg in its own right, and I think the LeFevre peninsular should be the suburb of the Port, since it has the best views.

[AG]

Each of these "hubs" would still need to be fed from their surrounding areas. There is nothing wrong with this idea, infact I agree with it, if there is a big enough population [number and density] to require and utilise it.

Adelaide is just getting to a point now were we can get an efficient radial feed system working with more frequent services to the cbd. The cbd still has far more potential for much greater occupancy, residential and commercial. Even the furthest suburban points are well within reach with an effective transport system.

Tokyo has a population far more numerous and dense than ours, and (stretching my geographical knowledge/ taking an educated guess here) larger in area than Adelaide. Adelaide could certainly not support multiple light/ heavy rail systems radially feeding multiple hubs at this time, nor any time in any of our lifetimes I would be willing to bet.

There is certainly a place however for centres such as Nourlunga, Marion, Modbury, Westlakes, Port Adelaide, Salisbury, Munno Parra to have a higher density of retail and commercial space as well as higher density residential occupancy-especially if placed along cbd oriented transport corridors.

The example I used was an extreme example of that particular urban model put to use. Probably a better example would've been what Sydney is doing now by shifting the economic focus from Sydney's CBD to districts such as Parramatta and Blacktown. Tokyo metropolitan area has well over a couple of dozen smaller city centres within the urban area (including Yokohama), but a small city such as Adelaide could probably only support a few at most with the current population.

The outer suburban areas are within reach of the CBD, but it still takes too long by public transport compared to driving (even some of the bus routes that use the O-Bahn for part of their journey), with little incentive for those residents to use what public transport they do have access to. The major public transport corridors really need to be split into a combination of local services and express services for those from the outer suburban areas to reach the city quickly. That may be a challenge with the current infrastructure though and would require significant investment. Whether this is feasible or not is questionable.

I direct you to my earlier posts about shrinking the urban boundary and having several CBDs on the Adelaide plains. Elizabeth (industry), Noarlunga (industry), Marion (commercial, but knock down the mall), and Glenelg (tourist resort) were all on my list. However, distinct from your plans, I did not envisage surrounding districts. I envisaged surrounding farmsteads. This would justify it, I feel, as population would be so dense that there would be sufficient inter-city traffic to justify frequent PT. My examples were people who live in Glenelg working in Noarlunga, or a football team from Marion playing at an oval in Elizabeth.
I can accept perhaps a need/desire for suburbs, and something like Mile End, serviced by a connector bus similar to North Adelaide's, would be socially, environmentally and economically efficient. But any further out, and you start multiplying problems for limited marginal gain. (Each 'CBD' would have its own single row of suburb, which in turn would give way to farms/national park.)

Industrial centres are not CBDs. Central business districts are defined as areas serving commercial purposes, usually comprising a mixture of financial, retail and entertainment uses. What business or political leaders in their rightful minds would be willing to knock down one of Australia's largest malls, at great expense to the businesses who occupy and operate the mall? Not to mention the locals who rely on the mall for their goods and services. There'd be politcal and economic uproar if a plan such as that were to occur, and the cost of shifting so many people and businesses would outweigh the benefit of the outcome. Hopefully you realise that construction and demolition uses a lot of energy and creates a lot of waste as well.