News & Discussion: Roads & Traffic

Threads relating to transport, water, etc. within the CBD and Metropolitan area.
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AtD
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Re: The Great Roads Debate

#511 Post by AtD » Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:30 pm

http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you ... ongestion/
You don't have to be a roads scholar to work out congestion

Canberra correspondent Bernard Keane writes:
Here’s a prediction in the light of Ken Henry’s call last week for congestion pricing to be considered in Australia: it won’t happen in your lifetime, Dr Henry.

Urban road transport is a vast public policy failure by governments that costs us billions of dollars a year, but it will go on being tolerated, chiefly because voters won’t accept the solution.

The Bureau of Transport and Regional Economics, which has been estimating congestion costs for years, most recently had a stab at costs in 2007 based on 2005 data, and concluded the cost of congestion that year was $9.4 billion. The BTRE concluded it was likely to rise, under a medium scenario, to more than $20 billion in 2020. Sydney and Melbourne are where two-thirds of the costs are incurred, and the costs are roughly split about 40% each for lost business and personal time and the remainder split evenly between pollution costs and extra vehicle running costs.

In Henry’s words, that makes a compelling case for reform. There’s not too many micro-economic reforms that would inject $10 billion a year into the economy pretty much immediately.

For economists, road pricing has been a compelling case for reform for decades. Impose a price signal and road users will start behaving differently, altering their travel arrangements or switching modes. Provide variable pricing and those who value their time the most can pay the most for a shorter transit time. And road pricing in fact is an area where we now do things significantly worse than our ancestors did. In the US and the UK, private provision of roads, and charges for users, were common in the 19th century. In the 20th century, governments pushed aside private operators in providing road infrastructure for the exponential growth in automobiles, and congestion began to become a problem of interest to economists, who had previously primarily been interested in how best to fund the construction and maintenance of roads. By the 1950s, the likes of Milton Friedman were advocating painting radioactive strips down the middle of roads and fitting Geiger counters to cars to measure travel.

But it was only in the 1990s, when the technology for electronic tolling became available, that congestion pricing really took off.

"Take off" is relative, because it only ever took off among economists. Singapore established a highly successful system and some Scandinavian countries experimented with it, but Ken Livingstone’s London system was the first example of a major metropolitan road pricing system.

As policy makers steadfastly failed to see the good sense in congestion pricing, economists began to wonder what they were doing wrong. What could be more sensible than introducing a price signal in a market -- the market of travel time -- where consumers were subjected to Soviet-style queueing rather than being able to purchase a better product, in the form of reduced travel time?

The problem was motorists, who have consistently indicated strong hostility to the idea of road pricing the world over. Motorists are perhaps the most irrational lobby group of all, as if the act of getting into a car reduces our IQs by 25%. We hold any number of absurd beliefs, such as that fuel excise should only be spent on roads, or is somehow sent into a black hole rather than spent on other areas such as hospitals and schools, that the solution to congestion is more roads, despite constant evidence that congestion simply expands to fill available road space, or that roads should be designed with peak loads in mind, ignoring the wasted investment when road space sits idle the other 20 hours a day.

Most of all they believe roads should be free, despite readily accepting that goods and services have a price everywhere else in the economy.

Australian motorists are no different to American, European or Asian motorists in this regard. Livingstone is now the former lord mayor of London.

One of the persistent arguments against road pricing is that it is regressive, as if current arrangements are not. Car registration is a regressive charge, as is fuel excise -- petrol is a greater proportion of the budgets of lower-income people than of higher-income earners. Lower-income families have to live further away from urban centres and, accordingly, have higher transport costs than inner-city residents.

For all these reasons and more, it is unlikely any Australian state government politician will propose a comprehensive road pricing system for their capital city -- and we’re really talking about the NSW and Victorian governments. Piecemeal tollways, yes -- lumped higglepiggledly into a free transport network -- but not a London-style system that charges you for using congested areas. You’d have to get a signed-in-blood bipartisan deal between the major parties before they’d ever commit to it. Or perhaps Nathan Rees might figure that, since he’s going to lose the next election anyway, he could actually achieve something in his brief premiership by giving Sydney a proper road pricing system.

There’s another reason why governments don’t regard congestion as more than a minor political irritant. The primary victims of congestion are families. Although it isn’t reflected in the BTRE’s allocation of costs, if most people had smaller transit times, they’d spend longer with their families, not longer at work. It is families that pay the main cost of congestion, in terms of less time together, of stress in the home-school-work commute, of greater amounts of disposable income spent on fuel. And despite the homage politicians routinely pay to families, no one spends a great deal of time and money advocating on behalf of families spending longer together.

In short, we might hate congestion but we don’t regard it seriously enough.

Really, the only sensible solution for motorists is to make congestion so inordinately costly that governments are compelled to act. Everyone who is not driving a car to work at the moment should start driving and clog up the streets along with everyone else. Maybe that will make things so bad a brave politician will decide it’s time, finally, to act.

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Re: The Great Roads Debate

#512 Post by yoghurtfish » Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:49 pm

Aidan wrote:Adelaide does not need ring roads.

Firstly it wouldn't be the SE Freeway Extension, as the SE Freeway has already been extended to Glen Osmond. Secondly, there wasn't a lot of housing on the route of the SE Freeway. The same can not be said for the Foothills Expressway. And thirdly, even if a route could be found, why would you want to build it? There's not much traffic between the hills and southern suburbs. The original Foothills Expressway would've been well used because it connected with the Hills Freeway. But with that firmly consigned to the dustbin of history, why waste the money?
[/quote]

Technically its not the SE Freeway extension to Glen Osmond, its the Adelaide-Crafers Highway... The SE Freeway always has and still does stop at Crafers.

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Re: The Great Roads Debate

#513 Post by rhino » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:18 am

yoghurtfish wrote: Technically its not the SE Freeway extension to Glen Osmond, its the Adelaide-Crafers Highway... The SE Freeway always has and still does stop at Crafers.
Then why does the sign just past Mirra Monte on the uphill carriageway say START FREEWAY, and the one on the downhill carriageway say END FREEWAY?

As far as I am aware, the Adelaide-Crafers Highway was a name used while the new section of the South Eastern Freeway was being built, and is still occasionally used by the media to identify the particular stretch of freeway they are referring to. The name stored in the state's road database for that stretch of road is South Eastern Freeway. I've just checked it.
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Re: The Great Roads Debate

#514 Post by jk1237 » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:42 pm

hmm, good question. I also thought that the new stretch was technically the Crafers Hwy, but you are right rhino, there is a sign not to far past the toll house that says 'start freeway' so its a mystery

so who is correct?

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Re: The Great Roads Debate

#515 Post by rogue » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:14 pm

who cares!

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Re: The Great Roads Debate

#516 Post by drwaddles » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:25 am

Correspondence from the DTEI last year confirms that it is the South Eastern Freeway, although it is signed as Princes Highway (see below).

Image

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Re: The Great Roads Debate

#517 Post by fabricator » Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:37 pm

drwaddles wrote:Correspondence from the DTEI last year confirms that it is the South Eastern Freeway, although it is signed as Princes Highway (see below).
Nice to see the sign company are still making mistakes, that one where they misspelt Noarlunga was a good one though.
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Re: The Great Roads Debate

#518 Post by rhino » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:43 pm

The South Eastern Freeway actually does form part of the Princes Highway, which takes on many different names in different towns it passes through, much the same as most Australian highways do.

With regard to signs, after they built the roundabout at the corner of Mount Barker Road and Onkaparinga Valley Road at Verdun, they put up a sign to Adelaide that pointed up the Onkaparinga Valley instead of to the freeway. After a couple of months a new sign saying Birdwood was pop-riveted over it.
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Re: The Great Roads Debate

#519 Post by drwaddles » Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:28 am

fabricator wrote:Nice to see the sign company are still making mistakes, that one where they misspelt Noarlunga was a good one though.
This is a DTEI directive, not a sign company mistake.

I don't fully understand the road classification and naming system in SA - there does not seem to be any provision of classification of roads as highways, main roads etc. under the Highways Act. In the other states it is much clearer in legislation and the declared road name v local road name interface a lot easier understood.

In the same correspondence I asked the DTEI about Jubilee Highway being an alternative name through Mount Gambier - I'll have to dig out the answer and refresh my memory!

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Re: The Great Roads Debate

#520 Post by fabricator » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:57 pm

It should just be:
M1 - South Eastern Freeway
Princes Highway segment.

Having a road that changes name multiple times along its length is only going to confuse people.
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Re: The Great Roads Debate

#521 Post by drwaddles » Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:12 pm

drwaddles wrote:Correspondence from the DTEI last year confirms that it is the South Eastern Freeway, although it is signed as Princes Highway (see below).
I just found the correspondence and it is actually 'South East Highway' for DTEI purposes but signed as Princes Highway.

The National Highway between Tailem Bend and Glen Osmond is signed as the
Princes Highway but is commonly called the South Eastern Freeway by the
community and the media. The Department refers to it as the South East Highway
for administrative and road management purposes. Adelaide-Crafers Highway was
the name given to the tunnel project and appeared on some maps although the
Department has attempted to prevent map manufacturers using this name.


Some others that you might find interesting...

"The National Highway between Port Wakefield and Port Augusta is un-named and
maps such as those produced by the RAA do not show a road name. The Department
refers to the road as the Port Augusta - Port Wakefield road for administrative
and road management purposes. In addition, as the highway forms part of National
Route One the community and the media often call it Highway One."

"The road from Mount Gambier to Casteron in Victoria is named the Glenelg
Highway and known locally as Casterton Road, but for administrative and road
management purposes the Department refers to it as the Victorian Border -
Glenburnie Road."

"The Princes Highway through Mount Gambier is known loocally as the Jubilee
Highway. it is quite common for a road in a township to have a local name for
address purposes, but also form part of a route having a different name."

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Re: The Great Roads Debate

#522 Post by Hooligan » Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:18 pm

I have heard highway one from Port Wakefield to Snowtown be reffered to as Snowtown Road. I have even seen it on a map.

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Re: The Great Roads Debate

#523 Post by adam73837 » Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:51 pm

Here's a little something for people to read:
http://www.raa.net/download.asp?file=do ... nt_677.pdf It's relatively old (published in 2005), however there are still several good points there. Enjoy. Take note of the last page...
I take back many of the things I said before 2010; particularly my anti-Rann rants. While I still maintain some of said opinions, I feel I could have been less arrogant. I also apologise to people I offended; while knowing I can't fully take much back. :)

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Re: The Great Roads Debate

#524 Post by fabricator » Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:08 pm

adam73837 wrote:Here's a little something for people to read:
http://www.raa.net/download.asp?file=do ... nt_677.pdf It's relatively old (published in 2005), however there are still several good points there. Enjoy. Take note of the last page...
Extending the tram line from Victoria Square to North Terrace will cost $21 million, yet patronage is not expected to increase dramatically. All that will happen within the city is that existing bus passengers will switch to the tram.
Would the RAA like cream on their humble pie ?
Its obvious this organisation are blind to the problems with the public transport network. Their only solution to rosd bottlenecks are to build more road.

If Britannia roundabout is such a big problem, why don't the RAA have any models made of what they plan to replace it with. I mean they paid for that South Road tunnel video.
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Re: The Great Roads Debate

#525 Post by AtD » Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:25 pm

Car insurance and service company wants more roads, cars. Gasp, shock, horror.

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