My Adelaide Road & Rail Plan

[jk1237]

somewhere like Los Angeles shows some sort of solution

LA has the worst PT in the world, even Adelaide has more public transport train lines than LA! I would not be looking to there for any PT advice.

I believe they have spent a few billion on a subway system though. Has 2 or 3 lines, Mono maybe able to know more about it as he recently was there.

You are spot on PeFe, the stations do need upgrading, and thankfully it looks like it will hapen

[Aidan]

somewhere like Los Angeles shows some sort of solution

LA has the worst PT in the world, even Adelaide has more public transport train lines than LA! I would not be looking to there for any PT advice.

Firstly there are many cities in America with far worse PT than LA. Detroit is the obvious example. Birmingham (Alabama) is worse still.

Secondly, just because LA has done some things wrong doesn't mean we should ignore what they've done right. Station design appears to be something they've done right.

[monotonehell]

somewhere like Los Angeles shows some sort of solution

LA has the worst PT in the world, even Adelaide has more public transport train lines than LA! I would not be looking to there for any PT advice.

I believe they have spent a few billion on a subway system though. Has 2 or 3 lines, Mono maybe able to know more about it as he recently was there.

You are spot on PeFe, the stations do need upgrading, and thankfully it looks like it will hapen

LA has a lot of PT, it's just that it consists mostly of buses. Because LA is mostly a grid format, going diagonally often incurs a time cost (unless there's a freeway going your way).

"LA's subway" is a bit misleading, the end of the Red line near Hollywood dives underground near the hills for a few miles, but for the most part the light rail runs along freeway corridors. There's also heavy rail for longer journeys.

Even though we don't have the scale of LA, I'd say their PT exceeds ours in some ways. Mostly to do with frequency. On most main roads you wont wait more than a 10 minutes during the day.

[Straze]

Rapid Transit has been built in many cities all over the world including the London Underground and New York Subway, yes it is considered to be expensive to build at first but if it is planned well like any other public transport project in the long term does pay off by improving traffic. I have a few ideas for new rapid transit lines for Adelaide that i will like to share , i will put them up on this thread bit by bit so you can decide whether its the right choice or not. Briefly here are some of my ideas for new lines - Adelaide Airport to City, City to Magill and City Loop. I will post more details of my proposals shortly. If you have any questions, suggestions or comments your post will be appreciated.

[Westside]

their PT exceeds ours in some ways. Mostly to do with frequency. On most main roads you wont wait more than a 10 minutes during the day.

Well not exactly, most main roads are more like 20 mins during the day, compared with our 15 min Go-zones and their Main train line, the red line only runs every 12 min during the day. Not exactly great frequencies for a city with the population of our country.

However, the one thing they are finally starting to do well is replace a lane each way from many freeways and convert it into a light rail line, or a dedicated bus lane. Yay, finally public transport is clawing some ground back on private transport!

[Prince George]

LA has a lot of PT, it's just that it consists mostly of buses. Because LA is mostly a grid format, going diagonally often incurs a time cost (unless there's a freeway going your way).

"LA's subway" is a bit misleading, the end of the Red line near Hollywood dives underground near the hills for a few miles, but for the most part the light rail runs along freeway corridors. There's also heavy rail for longer journeys.

Even though we don't have the scale of LA, I'd say their PT exceeds ours in some ways. Mostly to do with frequency. On most main roads you wont wait more than a 10 minutes during the day.

Yes, it's an example of "received wisdom" that we all think LA has no public transport and can't have because of its low density sprawl. In fact, their population density is almost 8 times that of Adelaide, and LA's public transport is used far more than people realise. According to Wikipedia, their light rail is the third busiest (by average daily passengership) in the country, the subways are the ninth busiest. If you reckon by passengers-per-mile, the subway is the sixth and is busier than SF's BART or Chicago's L line. BTW, the purple line is underground too, but just follows the same route as the red line, right? They literally have parallel tunnels for those routes.

In last years election, LA voters approved Measure R, a sales tax increase to fund further transit expansions, including making more sense out of their busways and subways (eg having them actually connect in useful ways). So watch out, LA's catching up.

[Omicron]

LA has a lot of PT, it's just that it consists mostly of buses. Because LA is mostly a grid format, going diagonally often incurs a time cost (unless there's a freeway going your way).

"LA's subway" is a bit misleading, the end of the Red line near Hollywood dives underground near the hills for a few miles, but for the most part the light rail runs along freeway corridors. There's also heavy rail for longer journeys.

Even though we don't have the scale of LA, I'd say their PT exceeds ours in some ways. Mostly to do with frequency. On most main roads you wont wait more than a 10 minutes during the day.

Yes, it's an example of "received wisdom" that we all think LA has no public transport and can't have because of its low density sprawl. In fact, their population density is almost 8 times that of Adelaide, and LA's public transport is used far more than people realise. According to Wikipedia, their light rail is the third busiest (by average daily passengership) in the country, the subways are the ninth busiest. If you reckon by passengers-per-mile, the subway is the sixth and is busier than SF's BART or Chicago's L line. BTW, the purple line is underground too, but just follows the same route as the red line, right? They literally have parallel tunnels for those routes.

In last years election, LA voters approved Measure R, a sales tax increase to fund further transit expansions, including making more sense out of their busways and subways (eg having them actually connect in useful ways). So watch out, LA's catching up.

Say what now?

[Prince George]

Yes, it's an example of "received wisdom" that we all think LA has no public transport and can't have because of its low density sprawl. In fact, their population density is almost 8 times that of Adelaide, ...

Say what now?

Thank you for pointing out my gross exaggeration, Omi. LA's density is actually 2.5 to 5 times greater than Adelaide, depending on how we reckon that density. The ABS published a number of 1295 persons / square km for Adelaide, but if you take our population (roughly 1.2 million) and divide that by the city's area (1,800 sq km), you get a figure that's almost half that. On the other hand, LA squeezes 3.8 million people into 1,300 sq km: it's suburban landscape still looks similar to Adelaide, but across the city you often have multiple families living together in the one house.

[AtD]

The ABS published a number of 1295 persons / square km for Adelaide, but if you take our population (roughly 1.2 million) and divide that by the city's area (1,800 sq km), you get a figure that's almost half that.

The ABS excludes zero population districts from their population density figures - ie industrial areas, conservation areas, farmland, etc. For example, DSTO would be included in Adelaide's area but excluded for population density.

[Prince George]

The ABS published a number of 1295 persons / square km for Adelaide, but if you take our population (roughly 1.2 million) and divide that by the city's area (1,800 sq km), you get a figure that's almost half that.

The ABS excludes zero population districts from their population density figures - ie industrial areas, conservation areas, farmland, etc. For example, DSTO would be included in Adelaide's area but excluded for population density.

Which has the perverse mathematician in me imagining a city designed as a fractal curve (like the Sierpinski carpet), which might then have finite area, finite population, but infinite density.

[Straze]

Adelaide Airport is one of Australias busiest airport with around 6 million passengers a year, there has also been substanial commercial/retail interest in the new airport terminal and close by (IKEA), the only thing missing now is a dedicated public transport link to the city of Adelaide, yes i know that the Government introduced the new JetBus service yet i find the problem is that it fails to carry high capacity and enough space for luggage. Thats why i propose a new rapid transit line to be constructed it will provide airport commuters an fast, dedicated, comfortable and attractive link to the city. The line will start underneath Sir Richard William Avenue then travels north, then east underneath Sir Donald Bradman Drive, Grote Street, Victoria Square, the line will then travel north under King William Street and King William Road terminating near Festival Theatre. The stations will be at Adelaide Airport, Cowandilla, Santos Stadium, Grote Street, Victoria Square, Rundle Mall and Festival Theatre. A connection at Mile End with the suburban railway network will allow trains to come from the rail depots. Victoria Square i propose there to be a major rail interchange station to future rapid transit lines and the existing Glenelg tramline. If you have any questions, suggestions, helpful info or constructive comments your post will be appreciated. The next rapid transit line i am looking at is a City Loop line.

[monotonehell]

Adelaide Airport is one of Australias busiest airport with around 6 million passengers a year, there has also been substanial commercial/retail interest in the new airport terminal and close by (IKEA), the only thing missing now is a dedicated public transport link to the city of Adelaide, yes i know that the Government introduced the new JetBus service yet i find the problem is that it fails to carry high capacity and enough space for luggage. Thats why i propose a new rapid transit line to be constructed it will provide airport commuters an fast, dedicated, comfortable and attractive link to the city. The line will start underneath Sir Richard William then travels north, then east underneath Sir Donald Bradman Drive, Grote Street, Victoria Square (links to my proposed City Loop), the line will then travel north under King William Street and King William terminating near Festival Theatre. The stations will be at Adelaide Airport, Cowandilla, Santos Stadium, Grote Street, Victoria Square, Rundle Mall and Festival Theatre. A connection at Mile End with the suburban railway network will allow trains to come from the rail depots. If you have any questions, suggestions, helpful info or constructive comments your post will be appreciated.

A tunnel just for commuters to the airport seems cost prohibitive. That's why the Jetbus services are currently shared between Airport and other destinations; there's not enough airport only traffic to warrant a dedicated service to the airport.

Also I dislike the idea of burying sightseeing tourists underground for their first journey into Adelaide. A tram would be a better option, of which we have had quite an extensive discussion over the last few years; http://www.sensational-adelaide.com/for ... f=17&t=723

[Straze]

Adelaide Airport is one of Australias busiest airport with around 6 million passengers a year, there has also been substanial commercial/retail interest in the new airport terminal and close by (IKEA), the only thing missing now is a dedicated public transport link to the city of Adelaide, yes i know that the Government introduced the new JetBus service yet i find the problem is that it fails to carry high capacity and enough space for luggage. Thats why i propose a new rapid transit line to be constructed it will provide airport commuters an fast, dedicated, comfortable and attractive link to the city. The line will start underneath Sir Richard William then travels north, then east underneath Sir Donald Bradman Drive, Grote Street, Victoria Square (links to my proposed City Loop), the line will then travel north under King William Street and King William terminating near Festival Theatre. The stations will be at Adelaide Airport, Cowandilla, Santos Stadium, Grote Street, Victoria Square, Rundle Mall and Festival Theatre. A connection at Mile End with the suburban railway network will allow trains to come from the rail depots. If you have any questions, suggestions, helpful info or constructive comments your post will be appreciated.

A tunnel just for commuters to the airport seems cost prohibitive. That's why the Jetbus services are currently shared between Airport and other destinations; there's not enough airport only traffic to warrant a dedicated service to the airport.

Also I dislike the idea of burying sightseeing tourists underground for their first journey into Adelaide. A tram would be a better option, of which we have had quite an extensive discussion over the last few years; http://www.sensational-adelaide.com/for ... f=17&t=723

I propose to take the line underground so that eventually it could be extended to Harbour Town at West Beach and allows further extension in the City & to other areas of Adelaide at a later stage. The reason why i propose it to be a rapid transit line rather than a light rail line is because i want to prepare Adelaide for the increase in population we may get for years to come if we make the wrong choice now we will later regret it and it will cost alot money to fix it. I dont think there is nothing wrong with taking tourists underground as providing them with a fast service would attract them. In London there is a dedicated rail service for the airport and its still sustainable.

[Aidan]

I propose to take the line underground so that eventually it could be extended to Harbour Town at West Beach and allows further extension in the City & to other areas of Adelaide at a later stage.

You don't need the entire line to be underground just to build an underground extension.

The reason why i propose it to be a rapid transit line rather than a light rail line is because i want to prepare Adelaide for the increase in population we may get for years to come if we make the wrong choice now we will later regret it and it will cost alot money to fix it.

That reminds me of when Heathrow Terminal 4 was built. The Underground line to it was built as a loop, with all trains running to T4 before T123. But they took a long time to get from T4 to T123 because the line detoured to the planned location of Terminal 5. But when Terminal 5 was actually built (twenty years later) it was located over a kilometre further W.

We should avoid obvious false economies, but it's equally important to avoid wasting money building unnecessary infrastructure on spec. Also keep in mind that money has an opportunity cost, and in the short term it's not readily available.

I dont think there is nothing wrong with taking tourists underground as providing them with a fast service would attract them.

Any rail service between the City and the airport would attract a good proportion of tourists.

In London there is a dedicated rail service for the airport and its still sustainable.

The airport? London has several! I think the one most comparable to Adelaide Airport* is London City Airport. This is linked to the City by the Docklands Light Railway, which is mostly elevated and has quite closely spaced stations.

* Close to the City, and passenger numbers are slightly lower but growing quickly.
In terms of aircraft types and numbers of flights, Stansted is more similar, but it's a lot further from the City.

[Westside]

The line will start underneath Sir Richard William then travels north,

Poor Richard William would be turning in his grave. Literally, if the line started underneath him.