PRO: Port Adelaide Tramline | $260m

[AtD]

Rundle Mall isn't so bad. Pirie St passengers have no hope in peak.

[ChrisRT]

Now that they've withdrawn the funding for the West Lakes branch ...

Withdrawn funding? I'm sorry but have I missed something? Can you provide a source to back up this claim?

My understanding is it has been delayed by a year due to Adelaide Oval upgrade (assuming that project goes ahead).

Remember the plan is to roll it out over 10 years and we haven't even finished year 1. The priority for the next couple of years will probably be electrifying the existing heavy rail lines. Further extensions to tram line will likely come after that.

[Waewick]

I believe i've heard Kevin Foley suggest it won't be happening either but thats not to say other works won't be.

You would think once the current extension is complete and the election over future direction will be supplied for the trams. If this is all we are getting then its safe to say we have blown some significant cash.

The Trams need at minimum a city loop (well thats just my opinion so it makes it easier for me to catch )

edit
http://www.dtei.sa.gov.au/infrastructur ... _rail/faqs

What is the timing for other stages of the Coast to Coast Light Rail program?
The timeframe for the extension of the light rail service to West Lakes, Semaphore and Port Road is currently being reviewed in light of the recent announcement by the Government to defer the West Lakes light rail extension by two years.

not promising at all.

[DM8]

It was on DTEI at one point (has since been removed though) that the completion of the extension to West Lakes and Semaphore, as well as the resleepering and electrification of the rail system, and the new ticketing system, were to all be completed by 2018, coinciding with one of the SASP targets - to increase public transport patronage to 10% of metropolitan weekday passenger vehicle kilometres travelled by 2018. Correct me if I'm wrong, but given that the "$2 billion over 10 years" thing was in the 2008/2009 budget, that should therefore mean that we're actually in the second year of this 10 year rollout.

It's anyone's guess if this SASP target will actually be met. Some years back, this target was set for 2010. Ooops.

IMO the reason further extensions of the tramline have been delayed is because the government don't have any rock solid plans as to how to actually get the line further out towards West Lakes and Semaphore - it seems a bit up in the air at present. Methinks some more "planning studies" to keep the "boys in the club" employed for another few years.

[drwaddles]

The target won't be achieved without significant intervention from externalities - such as petrol prices or an economic crash - because the Government is focused on ribbon-cutting rather than the little things which will actually improve things.

Government should instantly increase the frequency of all services to 10min headways throughout the day and see public transport patronage rise. It would not surprise me if the 10% target was achieved purely by that.

I will agree, though, that some infrastructure is required to achieve this - i.e. better to electrify than buy more diesels for the more frequent services, extend the tram line to replace buses on a trunk line and so on.

Unfortunately, the infrastructure on its own will not raise PT use sufficiently to meet the target - all the little things in the background, such as simple network adjustments and frequency increases are required to complement the capital works.

[Straze]

Is there enough trams to run services every 15 minutes Weekdays, Weekends and Public Holidays during the day.

[DM8]

Government should instantly increase the frequency of all services to 10min ...

Agree wholeheatedly. You don't even get that frequency in peak on our rail system, which is really poor. I hope they improve the frequencies once all lines are electrified, although that would create more havoc at a number of already congested level crossings around Adelaide (eg. Park Tce. Salisbury, Morphett/Diagonal Rd, etc).

[Waewick]

well if they would just put a tram down glen osmond road (ignoring all the dificulties with that )

i would be 1 person catching PT again.

[jk1237]

Is there enough trams to run services every 15 minutes Weekdays, Weekends and Public Holidays during the day.

are you joking, if trams to Glenelg run every 10 mins during peak hour, would you reckon they could possibly run every 15 mins outside of peak (which they actually do now anyway during weekdays)

[bay transit]

Is there enough trams to run services every 15 minutes Weekdays, Weekends and Public Holidays during the day.

There are a total of 17 trams available for service.Under the new timetable commencing on Monday 22nd March on the Monday to Friday timetable 15 trams are required for the am and pm peaks .In the daytime off-peak 13 trams are required 4 for the Shuttle and 9 for the Entertainment Centre to Glenelg service.6 trams are required for all evening services(730pm to last tram-excluding friday nights).Weekend daytime services require 8 trams.
So there are certainly enough trams to provide services.

[drwaddles]

But they can't run them that frequency as it would require the level crossings to have their boom-gates down more than 50% of the time, to allow the trams through, which would cause even more chaos and congestion to road traffic. This is one of the key reasons why they built the South Road overpass.

Less than 50% - and how is this any different to any other major signalised intersection where green time on the major through movement may be 50% or less of total cycle time, especially when turning movements are involved?

When trams run on-street, there is no restriction on the frequency which they operate, as they simply operate in compliance with traffic light sequences and are demoted in priority alongside motor vehicle - think of them as cars on rails.

Exactly - trains are cars on rails that just happen to have absolute priority at all intersections.

With the extensions, the right-of-way reservation gives trams the best of both worlds; higher frequencies and faster operational times. It's good that a trip from the EnterCentre will only take 10-15 minutes. Imagine if the trams had no right of way? Battling against all the Port Road traffic!

Not sure how this relates to trains supposedly causing massive traffic jams? The tram line is essentially a railway that runs parallel to Port Road general traffic (sound familiar - we've got an Outer Harbor line which does this too!)

[Aidan]

The target won't be achieved without significant intervention from externalities - such as petrol prices or an economic crash - because the Government is focused on ribbon-cutting rather than the little things which will actually improve things.

Government should instantly increase the frequency of all services to 10min headways throughout the day and see public transport patronage rise. It would not surprise me if the 10% target was achieved purely by that.

That would certainly help. Right now we have the absurd situation where many potential passengers are deterred by overcrowding. And less waiting time would also attract more passengers. But increasing frequency alone is unlikely to be enough, and I've heard that one American city tried that strategy and failed (sorry, I can't remember which one).

For a really big modal shift we do need more infrastructure - we have to put down rails where the passengers want to go!

Is there enough trams to run services every 15 minutes Weekdays, Weekends and Public Holidays during the day.

are you joking, if trams to Glenelg run every 10 mins during peak hour, would you reckon they could possibly run every 15 mins outside of peak (which they actually do now anyway during weekdays)

It looked to me like a rhetorical question - implying the deficiencies of the service we've got aren't anything to do with a shortage of trams.

well if they would just put a tram down glen osmond road (ignoring all the dificulties with that )

i would be 1 person catching PT again.

What's the problem with the bus service? And would a bus lane make any difference?

[drwaddles]

For a really big modal shift we do need more infrastructure - we have to put down rails where the passengers want to go!

If there's not even a frequent bus service to "where to passengers want to go", what justification is there for a rail service? It is a big jump from no/hourly/half-hourly bus services to a rail service.

[Aidan]

For a really big modal shift we do need more infrastructure - we have to put down rails where the passengers want to go!

If there's not even a frequent bus service to "where to passengers want to go", what justification is there for a rail service? It is a big jump from no/hourly/half-hourly bus services to a rail service.

That depends on the distance. I agree that providing a frequent bus service should be a priority in the inner suburbs, but from the outer suburbs the buses take ages, and we already have railways. But the railways terminate on the edge of the CBD, while many passengers want to go to the middle of it. Rail's modal share is much higher near the station than in the rest of the City. So if we had a few more stations under the City, the number of passengers on it would increase by about a third, even before the effects of increased frequency are taken into account.

[fabricator]

With the extensions, the right-of-way reservation gives trams the best of both worlds; higher frequencies and faster operational times. It's good that a trip from the EnterCentre will only take 10-15 minutes. Imagine if the trams had no right of way? Battling against all the Port Road traffic!

Not sure how this relates to trains supposedly causing massive traffic jams? The tram line is essentially a railway that runs parallel to Port Road general traffic (sound familiar - we've got an Outer Harbor line which does this too!)

Difference is a 3 car railcar takes slightly longer to cross than a tram, but creates 3 times less triggering of the boom gates compared to the same amount of passengers on 3 trams. You can't drive trams close together at the high speeds (110km/hr) the government are claiming.