[COM] Adelaide Oval Redevelopment

[ricecrackers]

so does that mean that the socceroos will never play in Melbourne since they only have an oval cricket stadium thats large enough

the Socceroos rarely play at the MCG now and when they do the pitch is removed.
more recently they have been playing at Etithad stadium which has no cricket pitch..although most of the time the surface is a disgrace
in future they'll use the new AAMI park stadium which is neither ovular or containing a cricket pitch

[contractor]

Having a single stadium serving three codes is such an Adelaide thing to do!

I thought Mike Rann was from the UK and he would have a better understanding than most, of the effect a world cup has on a city. Perhaps he has spent to much time in the Australian sun and it's affected his judgement?

The solution of a three code world cup stadium is very disappointing considering the enormous cost of redeveloping a cricket stadium to meet FIFA standards while satisfying an AFL team! Sounds like hard work to me (and kind of weird).

Am I the only one (I'm thinking internationally here) who thinks that this proposal is odd? Did anyone else hear a snigger from Canberra when our proposal was shown to the world?

[Pants]

your language here suggests a bias. if you believe that playing soccer on a cricket pitch is an acceptable outcome for the sport then clearly you have no understanding of it.

that is my basis and your response is to insult my intelligence. I suggest you stick to skyscrapers or economics or whatever it is your expertise is.

at the end of the day here we have a state government spending upwards of $450 million on a ground that neither soccer or the Crows want to use. the Power want to use it but they cannot even get half a full gate at the ground they're currently at.

we have another X million dollars of Federal govt assistance required on top of that just to make the place compliant for soccer for a world cup, yet:
1. how can it be while we have a grassy knoll at one end?
2. it wont be compliant afterward as the cricket pitch goes back in in any case
3. the Socceroos will never again play in Adelaide because we wont have a compliant venue

now can you explain the business case for spending ~$600 million on a ground that is no use to anyone when $250 million would suffice for a world cup as well as any legacy for the game that brought it here?

You got in before my edit.

Answer this:

Do you think the FFA or Adelaide United would want to commit now to the upkeep and other ongoing costs associated with the stadium on the off chance they'll be able to afford it in 2022? I'm sure the State or Federal Governments aren't going to sign up to assuming those costs after the stadium's handed over to its ultimate tenant(s).

I’m not saying that playing soccer on a cricket pitch is an acceptable outcome in the long term, but it's better than building a stadium that isn’t currently needed and that probably won’t generate enough income in the long term to turn its tenants a profit.

There’s every reason to spend $600m on a stadium that will be used by the AFL between March and at least early September, CA and SACA in the summer, FIFA for any World Cup and the FFA and Adelaide United whenever they feel they’ll get a crowd to justify it. This, as opposed to spending $250m+ on a stadium that will get a handful of World Cup games in a once in a generation event and a few guaranteed local and international games after that, which there’s every chance its tenants won’t be able to afford in the long run and which won’t solve some of the AFL/SANFL and SACA’s issues as an added bonus.

I can pretty safely say that I love the game as much as you do and from a purely sporting perspective, of course it would be better for a purpose-built stadium to be used. However, from an economic perspective (and I don’t have an economics or commerce (or even skyscraper) background by the way, I’m just smart enough to know that you have to be able to afford something in the long term for it to be worthwhile) there can be no justification for it over a complying, near new, greater capacity, greater landmark, mixed-use option, the bulk of which is already on the cards. The other proposed Australian stadiums will have one or more of the AFL, NRL, ARU or Cricket as a co-tenant or regular back-up. A rectangular stadium in Adelaide wouldn’t.

If your basis to build a purpose-built stadium for a handful of World Cup games is because they shouldn’t be played on a cricket pitch that will be dug up and therefore non-existent, I have every reason to question your intelligence. As I do if you think it’s also a good idea on the chance the local game will take off to the point that it’s better to build a $250m+ stadium now just in case rather than to wait and see and use very good facilities in the interim. And as I do if you think the Socceroos will play any meaningful games at the 30,000 capacity AAMI Park over the MCG when the 1997 Iran and 2001 Uruguay games got 85,000 (and despite knowing nothing about the game, I do realise that we qualify differently now, but the 2009 Japan game got 70,000 at the MCG and it was a dead rubber).

A few other points:
- the hill doesn’t/won’t matter. No-one will sit there or they will use temporary seating as and when required. Do you remember the empty or low capacity space behind some of the end zones in the NFL stadiums used at USA 94?
- the cricket pitches won’t matter because when top flight Aussie Rules is back at Adelaide Oval, drop-ins will no doubt be used
- as for Adelaide United games in summer when pitches won’t be so readily removable, they haven’t prevented United playing major games there in recent seasons or listing two more in 2010/11
- I’m sure the Feds won’t be spending $250m on temporary seating at the Oval, so the expected retractable seating together with the drop-in pitches and non-use of or temporary seating on the hill etc will mean that we'll have a FIFA compliant stadium after the World Cup
- I’m sure the Crows would love to play in the CBD, if there was a business case for it, which there’d have to be for them to sign up
- this is speculation, but I’d imagine the Power would get more than 25,000 on average in the CBD, but if they didn’t, it wouldn’t matter because any Adelaide Oval shift won't be about capacity (it’ll be less than AAMI) but better stadium returns and greater access for more supporters


Keep trying though. This’ll be fun for at least a few more minutes.

[omada]

Can somebody tell me why ricecrackers has been banned? First Shuz and now ricecrackers. I presume in both instances there are good reasons.

[Pants]

He hasn't as far as I know. It just says that in his location for some reason.

Shuz (and his various reincarnations) has though and as keen as he was and as good a contribution to the site he made on occasions, there was good reason.

[spiller]

I wholehartedly agree with Pants on this one. There is absolutely NO longterm justification for a rectangular stadium being built in Adelaide, irregardless of what the future holds. 250 million seems like a small amount in comparison to the 450, 500, 600 million proposed for the AO redevelopment, however (as pants put it) there is NO (or very little) guarentee that a rectangular stadium will thrive after the 6 week long world cup leaves town, possibly never to return again, or for another 100 years and so on. We dont play professional rugby league in Adelaide, the Wallabies B-grade have played twice(?) since the rugby world cup (and there were appauling crowds at those games, and lets face it, we are never going to have regular socceroos fixtures in Adelaide because of crowd numbers versus the more populated cities/states (that is not a backward mentality, its just fact). And you could argue that Adelaide United could use the stadium but then what happens to Hindmarsh (which was developed under similar circumstances for the 2000 olympics)?

The end result (if we were to build a rectangular stadium) would be an absolute white elephant that sees maybe 1 socceroos match per year, a rugby sevens tournament (which has been very successful at Adelaide Oval anyway) and the pipe dream (or not) of perhaps an NRL team relocating tol Adeliade in the future, and probably folding (ala Adelaide Rams which had not one SA born player on its list IIRC).

250 million on that, all because of a 50mx50m section of turf is too hard in the middle of a larger, more purposeful Stadium which can do ALL of the above, as well as AFL football and Internationa/Domestic cricket?

One would have thought reworking the turf to cater for events would be the easier option...

[contractor]

Are you considering the amount of children who signed up for soccer during the last world cup? They will reach an age where they can go to the soccer with their mates.

Are you considering the anticipated overseas migration rate over the next ten years? They are more than likely to follow soccer than any other sport and not heard of AFL.

Are you considering the venue could hold International concerts? PINK, AC/DC, Rolling Stones etc would fill it.

[Pants]

Yes.

Junior soccer level participation rates have been high for a while now, with AFL and cricket on a downward trend. This doesn’t necessarily equal much greater support for the local league. You can bet that most kids’ soccer heroes are Messi, Ronaldo, Torres etc. Most would probably rather play the game and watch those guys on TV than regularly attend the A-League. Their Socceroo heroes such as Cahill, Kewell and Neill don’t play here either. You could bet that it would be the same story with the equivalent names in 2022.

Migration from Europe, Asia and other soccer regions has been high for years. Again, it doesn’t necessarily equal sufficiently greater attendances for the A-League.

I’m not pessimistic about the future of the game in this country. I think it has a very bright future, especially if we get to host a World Cup. I just wouldn’t bet my house on it.

How many bands big enough to do stadium shows come to Adelaide per year? One? Two tops? Make it three or four for a best-case scenario and you still don’t have a sufficient back-up plan.

[spiller]

I also see some irony in the fact that this whole stadium debate involving a focal move to Adelaide Oval arose largely because of the fact that it was concluded that Adelaide did not need, and could not justify having two large stadium (i.e. Adelaide oval and Football park), yet here we are debating that another (which would make it 3 stadiums!) should be built for world cup soccer!

[Waewick]

National Soccer will never be that big in this country for the reason Pants said,you walk up to anyone soccer fan and ask them who the support 9 times out of ten its one of the big european clubs.

Soccers major problem is simply its not the elite form of the game (that we all have access to), State Level cricket has the exact same problem. Australians love their sport, but they love the elite level of sport and the A-league is never going to be that.

Yes the socceroos might become the biggest sporting team in the country but it will never be reflected in the A-League.

Anyway back to the development, I'm more interested in them actually finishing it in time for the ashes rather than worrying about what is going to occur in 3-5 years time.

[Stubbo]

I think that there are some pretty good points made in relation to not building a purpose build rectangle stadium.

If (as is likely) a purpose built stadium does get built, same as Perth (while the render does look pretty, is it really gonna end up looking that good? I thought that was an old design from the previous government), are there any current multipurpose stadiums that can be used as a comparison?

I wouldnt mind having a look at how they operate and how the need to accomodate multiple sports has impacted on the design / cost / maintenance of the ground itself.

I personally think that Hindmarsh is as much of a victim of poor location as AAMI stadium is, bringing all sports into the city, or at least not tucking them out of sight (I must admit having never known where Hindmarsh Stadium was until stumbling upon it after doing a training course at the Education Centre), or away from public transport.

AFL will benefit massively from a CBD location, as will businesses in the CBD with the pre and post game crowds.

As someone has already mentioned, I just hope that this is not another retractable light tower issue, making it overly complex and ultimately not working.

[shaun]

With the amount of investment set to be poured into the Bowden/Hindmarsh area over the next 15-20 years, I would say Hindmarsh Stadium is in a good location. Not to mention its close to a tram and trainline.

Surely it wouldn't be that hard to redevelop Hindmarsh Stadium in the future

[stumpjumper]

There is absolutely NO longterm justification for a rectangular stadium being built in Adelaide, irregardless of what the future holds

Soccer (I'll call it that) is the world game, spiller, and despite the dedication of most Australians (including me) to Australian Rules, I think that in a few generations a rectangular stadium would be a handy asset to have.

In considering the whole, messy Adelaide Oval situation, there are a few more or less fixed matters which have to be considered.

In no order:

1. Soccer, Australian Rules and cricket cannot be easily or cheaply catered for at the same venue. AR and cricket can live together.

2. A rectangular arena of 40K/26K configuration is currently almost an off the shelf item costing about $270 mill plus land acquisition costs.

3. At Adelaide Oval at present, no major refit will occur without SACA's debt of at least $90 mill being repaid by someone (anyone!).

4. Any AO refit involving the AFL requires substantial financial guarantees to the Crows and to Port Adelaide.

5. The future use of AAMI Stadium is a factor in a major refit of AO.

6. The Park Lands site and the lease from ACC bring their own difficulties.

Neither the government, nor SACA, nor the AFL or its clubs nor any combination of those is willing to carry the risk of the completed project.

So far, no-one has come up with an arrangement for AO which a) satisfies the construction requirements (eg FIFA compliance), b) meets the various demands of interested parties described above, and c) which has a good chance of at least breaking even into the future.

It may be that there is no solution to the problem of successfully combining football cricket and soccer at AO. Even a good attempt, with adequate parking and transport connections, looks like costing towards $1 billion.

If that is the case, then the most sensible option may be finish the Western Grandstand redevelopment at Adelaide Oval, pay off SACA's debt, restructure SACA and let the AFL/SANFL and SACA sort themselves out at AO. In the meantime we build (subject to us getting the WC in 2018 or 2022) an off the shelf FIFA compliant rectangular stadium for soccer, NRL, athletics and general entertainment at one of several suitable locations, including the SANTOS Stadium.

Because of AO's inherent difficulties (of which SACA's debt is predominant) neither the federal government nor the state government is keen to put pen to paper. Kevin Foley waffles without saying anything and our own Member for Adelaide and Minister for Sport won't even go near the topic.

Contrast this situation with the rapid conclusion to Canberra's request for a 40K/26K stadium. $100 from the ACT government and around $170 from the Commonwealth. Done and dusted, while we will either be arguing for ever or wasting $100's of millions trying to get a result.

[contractor]

Contrast this situation with the rapid conclusion to Canberra's request for a 40K/26K stadium. $100 from the ACT government and around $170 from the Commonwealth. Done and dusted, while we will either be arguing for ever or wasting $100's of millions trying to get a result.

I blame the SA Government and it goes something like this:

'There's an election coming and we need to look as though we are actually doing something. We'll put a document together and include a video of something that we would like to build, can't afford and is probably doomed to fail. The people will get excited and think we are going to do something fantastic. After the election, the proposal will start to come undone due to circumstances beyond our control.'

[Omicron]

It still astonishes me that the SANFL is remotely entertaining the idea of partnering-up with the SACA again. Surely the most sane of heads would look at the SACA balance sheet (if that term could be applied to what I imagine is a frightful collection of red numbers) and run for the hills (or West Lakes, as the case may be).