News & Discussion: Adelaide Airport & Airlines

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Ho Really
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Re: Adelaide Airport & Airline News

#466 Post by Ho Really » Tue May 17, 2011 12:39 pm

Aidan wrote:
Ho Really wrote: They say it wasn't an emergency landing, but burning fuel quicker than expected doesn't sound good. Hope they sort it out quickly and that it has no ramifications on other A380s.
I don't see why it would have any ramifications. It was simply a case of QANTAS not putting enough fuel in, knowing that if they burn through it faster than expected (as can happen when there's adverse weather) they could divert to Adelaide. Carrying more fuel than they need is itself a waste of fuel, and Adelaide's such a small detour from the Melbourne - Singapore route that they thought not putting the extra in was worth the risk.
I didn't read the post I was commenting on properly. So yes there shouldn't be any ramifications for other A380s, however QANTAS are the ones who have stuffed up and there may be ramifications for them (as in bad publicity). I disagree though about detouring to Adelaide being a minor issue. Maybe someone here who knows a little more about jets and fuel usage can briefly tells us if it is better to have fuel in reserve (just in case they have problems at destination) or land and take off again, etc., (unless of course it is for some other emergency) on the way there.

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Re: Adelaide Airport & Airline News

#467 Post by Splashmo » Tue May 17, 2011 9:10 pm

It was unexpected headwinds.

I'm not sure if Aidan knows what he's talking about here. Of course planes need to have an extra fuel - if you have the bare minimum and run out you can't just refuel in the air. If an aircraft is placed into a holding pattern or can't land at the right airport for whatever reason, then it needs that extra fuel while it's up there. They also need more fuel for, like you say, if there's adverse weather or headwinds and the engines use it up faster. And A380s can't just land at any airport in an emergency as they need such large runways that most airfields between Adelaide/Melbourne and Singapore cannot cater for. There may not be one for hundreds of miles.

Carrying extra fuel is not a waste - it doesn't expire or go off at the end of the flight... it's obviously left in the tank and used the next time around like any car. Carrying extra fuel is not a risk. Not carrying enough is a risk.

This is a huge mistake and if they couldn't even make it the distance between Adelaide and Melbourne, what chance do the passengers have if they're out in the middle of the ocean?

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Re: Adelaide Airport & Airline News

#468 Post by metro » Tue May 17, 2011 9:18 pm

latest nearmap image of the airport carpark work, further down is the new control tower:

http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-34.938275,1 ... d=20110424

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Re: Adelaide Airport & Airline News

#469 Post by Aidan » Wed May 18, 2011 12:19 am

The Fairfax report of the diverted A380 is at http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-inc ... 1eqfy.html

And I'm not sure if Splashmo knows what he's talking about here. All planes carry some extra fuel, but it's a matter of how much. Carrying extra fuel is a waste, because of the weight of it. It takes more energy (and hence more fuel) to lift that extra weight several kilometres into the air and keep it up there for a few more hours. And it should go without saying that what's left in the tank after landing can be used on the next flight.

Because of this, airlines don't like to carry much extra fuel when there's only a very small chance it will be needed. Obviously on some routes they still need to for safety reasons, but Singapore to Melbourne is not one of them because they do have the option of diverting to Adelaide if they're low on fuel. And going from Melbourne to Singapore they'd have the option of diverting to Jakarta.
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Re: Adelaide Airport & Airline News

#470 Post by Omicron » Wed May 18, 2011 12:42 am

.....hence the charge for extra baggage that many still find so hard to understand.

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Re: Adelaide Airport & Airline News

#471 Post by Splashmo » Wed May 18, 2011 11:24 am

I'm not talking about carrying twice as much as you need, but obviously more than what was used here. You very clearly said "carrying more than they need" which is open to interpretation as enough to go from A to B and nothing in reserve. Mistakes happen but at the end of the day it's a big inconvenience for the passengers.

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Re: Adelaide Airport & Airline News

#472 Post by Aidan » Wed May 18, 2011 1:04 pm

Splashmo wrote:I'm not talking about carrying twice as much as you need, but obviously more than what was used here. You very clearly said "carrying more than they need" which is open to interpretation as enough to go from A to B and nothing in reserve.
I suppose it could be open to misinterpretation that way by people who don't know about aviation, but most people (including yourself) know that aircraft need some fuel in reserve for safety reasons.
Mistakes happen but at the end of the day it's a big inconvenience for the passengers.
Does anyone know what the actual delay was? I don't, but I'd estimate the delay to be under 90 minutes. It's an inconvenience for the passengers, but probably not a big one.
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Re: Adelaide Airport & Airline News

#473 Post by Splashmo » Wed May 18, 2011 3:04 pm

Not a big inconvenience unless they have connecting flights or the aircraft has a quick turnaround for another flight.

I wonder if there were any passengers onboard going to Adelaide? They'd probably still have to go on to Melbourne and then come back, eh.

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Re: Adelaide Airport & Airline News

#474 Post by bm7500 » Wed May 18, 2011 3:23 pm

Guys, I don't want to send this thread off on more of a tangent, but i will attempt to answer a few of the questions posed in the recent posts here.

Firstly, I don't work at the airport but i have some reasonable contacts and sources in the industry. I also happen to be a huge fan of aviation and have great interest in all the industry happenings and as such i try and keep abreast of the latest news.

The A380 (VH-OQI) flying the SIN - MEL sector as QF10 was diverted into ADL because of an unexpectedly higher usage of fuel. Once safely landed in Adelaide, a fuel leak was soon ruled out along with any other mechanical or technical problem. The A380 landed at around 4:15am inside the curfew on runway 05 (West Beach end) and departed at about 6:05am after refuelling.

You have to keep in mind that this route is flown 6 days a week by Qantas and they would have the fuel quantities required for the sector down to a fine art. This poses a couple of questions about why this flight and its crew found themselves in a low fuel situation. Was there some unexpected weather on route including stronger than anticipated head winds? Were the right fuel/passenger & freight weight calculations presented to the crew and entered into the flight computer? Is this diversion a result of Qantas trying to save money and carry less fuel to lessen weight, drag and ultimately save fuel...but not quite getting it right?... Diversions because of a low fuel situation are pretty infrequent these days and will be interesting to see if this 'incident' is reportable to the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB), and what they have to say about it.

Also, in terms of an emergency diversion airport for the A380, generally speaking any runway which can safely accommodate a 747 should be able to take an A380. This is because whilst the A380 is bigger and heavier is actually uses less runway length to take off and land thanks to its massively powerful engines. Manoeuvrability at the airport might however be an issue but this can usually be overcome by using stand off bays and the runway as a taxiway etc.

The passengers were kept onboard the aircraft in this instance as deplaning them would have only created a bigger logistical problem when it was time to depart, and would have ultimately delayed the flight further. And yes, even if your ultimate destination was Adelaide you would still have to go via MEL for the same reason.

I probably have posed more questions than i have answered, but I hope the above helps.
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Re: Adelaide Airport & Airline News

#475 Post by Maximus » Thu May 19, 2011 12:44 pm

BM, thanks for that info. All useful stuff. I agree that this isn't really the right thread to be speculating/debating about the whys and hows of the A380's landing in Adelaide, but it's interesting (and exciting) nonetheless.

On a side note, some of the AdelaideNow comments made me laugh... One person questioning whether it was actually possible for an A380 to land at Adelaide Airport! Um.... :roll: :)
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Re: Adelaide Airport & Airline News

#476 Post by bm7500 » Fri May 20, 2011 9:12 am

bm7500 wrote: You have to keep in mind that this route is flown 6 days a week by Qantas and they would have the fuel quantities required for the sector down to a fine art. This poses a couple of questions about why this flight and its crew found themselves in a low fuel situation. Was there some unexpected weather on route including stronger than anticipated head winds? Were the right fuel/passenger & freight weight calculations presented to the crew and entered into the flight computer? Is this diversion a result of Qantas trying to save money and carry less fuel to lessen weight, drag and ultimately save fuel...but not quite getting it right?...
Looks like we have an answer...
Qantas cuts fuel to save money

PILOTS flying Qantas's flagship Airbus A380 super jumbos are being pressured to carry less fuel on long-haul flights in a cost-cutting measure to reduce the airline's soaring fuel bills.
Company insiders have exposed a secret campaign, which increases the risk for flights being diverted to alternative airports because they cannot safely reach their destinations.

The campaign includes charts ranking pilots against each other based on fuel usage.

The revelations followed the forced diversion of two flights in just four days, with a Melbourne-bound A380 redirected to Adelaide on Tuesday after crew discovered it had burnt though too much fuel, and a flight from London forced to land in Kuala Lumpur because it had inadequate spare fuel to circle while a storm cleared.

The airline yesterday denied the diversions were solely the result of aircraft not carrying enough fuel.
But documents obtained by The Advertiser reveal in the past two years the amount of "discretionary fuel" - carried on board flights to deal with emergencies, unforeseen bad weather and airport delays - has dropped by about 40 per cent.

While the average A380 flight took off with 2502kg of discretionary fuel in 2009, landing with 1818kg unused, by late last year they were carrying 1472kg and landing with 1088kg onboard.The documents also show flights landing at Singapore and Melbourne - the two destinations to suffer diversions this week - on average landed with the least amount of remaining fuel of any Qantas A380 flights.

A pilot yesterday said the document, which ranks pilots based on fuel usage, was putting "subtle pressure" on crews.

"The airline is trying to save money, knowing that a lot of our pilots will see it as a challenge and compete with each other," he said.

"When the fleet was new they were more conservative, we carried more fuel, but as the fleet has settled in they have changed the policies to lower the fuel amounts."

He said the reductions in discretionary fuel - which save the airline about $3000 on each flight - would lead to more delays and forced landings because of weather or other unforeseen problems.

"We will see more of these diversions," the pilot said.

UNSW School of Aviation lecturer Peter Marosszeky, who has almost 50 years in the sector, said while the fuel policy had no impact on safety, it increased the chance of inconvenience.

"You're going to expose yourself to a greater chance of having a diversion if the weather turns sour en route," he said.

"Discretionary fuel has always been an issue, but it has always been tempered by the fact the captain has the final decision.

"There are some serious issues involved if you start pressuring a pilot to fly his plane in a different way."

A spokesman confirmed Qantas was looking at ways to cut fuel costs, but denied it had any impact on services. "Pilots are encouraged to closely monitor discretionary fuel uplift," he said.

The Australian and International Pilots Association said pilots always carried more than the minimum amount of fuel set by the airline but carriers were "willing to wear a certain number of diversions".

"That is an operational risk the airline takes," vice-president Captain Richard Woodward said.

"The performance of the airplane is directly related to its weight, and the only thing that changes in flight is the fuel."

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au
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Re: Adelaide Airport & Airline News

#477 Post by bm7500 » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:44 am

Cheap carriers ignite calls for airport tram

THE growing use of budget airlines has prompted a call by tourism groups for a tramline to Adelaide Airport.

Such a link would not only relieve vehicle congestion but help interstate football fans access the redeveloped Adelaide Oval.

Tourism and Transport Forum chief executive John Lee told The Advertiser many people came to Adelaide for events in the CBD and would now be visiting the redeveloped Torrens precinct.

"So the idea of having a direct link from North Tce to the airport would make a lot of sense," he said. "I have been to a game at AAMI Stadium and it's a torrid trip."

The key tourism and transport body also warned unless public transport systems to the airport were improved, the reliance on private cars as the primary means of travel to the airport will "simply be unsustainable".

An upgrade of Sir Donald Bradman Drive by adjusting traffic signals and grade separation with South Rd also is recommended to improve traffic flow between the airport and the city centre.

The move for the tramline was first revealed in 2009 when airport management committed to a light rail option in its master plan, reserving a transport corridor within the airport boundary to the passenger terminal.

It has been estimated building the line down West Beach Rd and Sir Donald Bradman Drive to the airport could cost more than $60 million.

Adelaide Airport has more than seven million passengers a year and 100,000 aircraft movements.

The Greens, the Adelaide City Council and the Property Council also support a light rail link to the airport - possibly linked to the Keswick rail terminal.

The Tourism and Transport Forum has put a submission to the Productivity Commission calling for investment in the line.

The submission says in the next 20 years, forecasts indicate annual passenger movements at capital city airports will grow to 235 million from 100 million.

The TTF says the rise of low-cost carriers has meant more budget travellers were now accessing major airports.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au
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Re: Adelaide Airport & Airline News

#478 Post by [Shuz] » Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:12 am

bm7500 wrote:An upgrade of Sir Donald Bradman Drive by adjusting traffic signals and grade separation with South Rd also is recommended to improve traffic flow between the airport and the city centre.
I assume they haven't heard that the State Government plans on doing exactly the opposite - grade seperating South Road from SDBR! :hilarious:

Nevertheless, I highly approve of light rail to and from the airport. Should be good for tourism.
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Re: Adelaide Airport & Airline News

#479 Post by notmichaeljfox » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:58 pm

bm7500 wrote:
The Greens, the Adelaide City Council and the Property Council also support a light rail link to the airport - possibly linked to the Keswick rail terminal.
Something that looped between Keswick, the airport and town would be great. I'd love to see them finally make use of the relatively short distance between the two.

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Re: Adelaide Airport & Airline News

#480 Post by skyliner » Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:47 pm

And continue the line through Grote or Googer to VC.

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