News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

[Listy]

You might be happy to have your energy use "managed" but large energy intensive industries are not. Backup generation in SA is regularly "managed" by diesel generation-so you don't notice a shortage of power...hardly good for the environment. None of this is advertised by whoever is in government.

I am finding it hard to find out how much diesel contributes to SA in a given year but I think it 1% or less from the graphs I have seen that have "other" sources apart from wind solar battery and gas.

If you go to https://opennem.org.au and select SA from the drop down list at the top left you can see the various sources & costs etc of electricity generation in the state - diesel appears as distillate, and this year generated 0.4% of the state's electricity, almost entirely in a 3 week period in June, at the peak of the Russian caused energy crisis.

[claybro]

Demand management is quite different to load shedding - which is when a suburb is turned off for 45 minutes if there is a real shortage of generation, See https://www.sapowernetworks.com.au/outa ... -shedding/ and https://www.energymining.sa.gov.au/__da ... g-list.pdf

My impression is that most demand management sites are fairly hot workplaces, so if it's 40 degrees outside, it's probably safer for the workers to turn off the equipment anyway. I think the Middleback Ranges mines were shut down a year or two ago, and it wasn't clear if that was for demand management or personnel safety.

Your impression is what you have been led to believe by politicians in that load management is infrequent and has not much effect on the general population. Significant load "management" occured last WINTER...not on a 40 deg day, and was due to very low generation from wind and solar over the entire SE of Australia. With less and less upkeep on existing coal generators, (some were off line for maintenance) - they will soon be permanently mothballed anyway. The governments response is now to double down on more wind and solar...but as we have witnessed just this year, low solar output and windless days for long periods are common in Australia in winter, and unless they are proposing thousands of large scale batteries, once the last coal plants are shut down...companies that have to endure "load management" will simply move offshore to China.- There is not enough resources, manpower or money to transition in the timeframes they are proposing-, nor is the technology up to the task, because as fast as they construct all of this stuff, the stuff already in place will require replacement due to its relatively short lifespan. We are being sold out to China...who have no qualms in constructing as much coal generation as is required -but hey...SA can feel good, because SOMETIMES it generated MOST of its power from renewables. Well done.

[SBD]

Welcome to western style communism.
You can use electricity, when we say you can.
Your solar panels, we will turn them off when we decide.

How stupid people have become to accept this ridiculous situation we find our selves in, from "renewables", to the gas situation where gas suppliers are trying to hold the country hostage to keep up their record profits.

Keep voting for the same politicians promising you the same thing every election.
What an utterly stupid fucking country this has become.

In "the good old days" before a power grid, everybody did their own thing for energy. That is still possible. I don't think anyone forces you to be on the electricity or gas grids. Nobody makes you turn on or off your generators - diesel, gas, wind or solar.

In the next phase, we had a grid, with large coal-burning power stations supplying entire towns, then linked to a grid for most of the state. "The government" - ETSA - controlled which and how many generators were operating to supply the grid.

As "renewables" became a thing, people were encouraged to install their own solar panels with simple grid-following inverters. That was fine while the total generated in a suburb/street (downstream of the last transformer) was less than the consumption in that area. Transformers could be upgraded to push electricity upstream to share to wider areas. These inverters don't work so well if there is no "master" to dictate the frequency/phase. That's why new installations now need to have more modern inverters to work in a much more distributed grid.

If you were in government, what would you do differently? Go back to a few large coal-burners with no rooftop solar? It seems that load shedding is much rarer now than it used to be.

[SBD]

Demand management is quite different to load shedding - which is when a suburb is turned off for 45 minutes if there is a real shortage of generation, See https://www.sapowernetworks.com.au/outa ... -shedding/ and https://www.energymining.sa.gov.au/__da ... g-list.pdf

My impression is that most demand management sites are fairly hot workplaces, so if it's 40 degrees outside, it's probably safer for the workers to turn off the equipment anyway. I think the Middleback Ranges mines were shut down a year or two ago, and it wasn't clear if that was for demand management or personnel safety.

Your impression is what you have been led to believe by politicians in that load management is infrequent and has not much effect on the general population. Significant load "management" occured last WINTER...not on a 40 deg day, and was due to very low generation from wind and solar over the entire SE of Australia. With less and less upkeep on existing coal generators, (some were off line for maintenance) - they will soon be permanently mothballed anyway. The governments response is now to double down on more wind and solar...but as we have witnessed just this year, low solar output and windless days for long periods are common in Australia in winter, and unless they are proposing thousands of large scale batteries, once the last coal plants are shut down...companies that have to endure "load management" will simply move offshore to China.- There is not enough resources, manpower or money to transition in the timeframes they are proposing-, nor is the technology up to the task, because as fast as they construct all of this stuff, the stuff already in place will require replacement due to its relatively short lifespan. We are being sold out to China...who have no qualms in constructing as much coal generation as is required -but hey...SA can feel good, because SOMETIMES it generated MOST of its power from renewables. Well done.

Really? Which companies/facilities shut down for demand management in winter, and what compensation did they receive? I understand that agreeing to be part of load management can result in lower contract prices for the supply the rest of the time.

[claybro]

Really? Which companies/facilities shut down for demand management in winter, and what compensation did they receive? I understand that agreeing to be part of load management can result in lower contract prices for the supply the rest of the time.

In the brick making industry alone-Boral and Brickmakers were affected due to gas shortages, which at the time was due in large part to gas supllies being diverted to electricity generation, because ageing coal plants faltered and wind and solar were well below average for some 3 weeks IN WINTER. Both companies are considering off shoring-that is just 2 that come to mind...there are many others in varying industries. We can argue that more gas should be reserved for the Australian market...agreed. But we are being constantly told that further gas exploration will/ should be banned, and will not be required for electricity generation except for very short bursts. This is not what is playing out worldwide.

[PeFe]

That is not "demand management"...that is something totally different.

[claybro]

That is not "demand management"...that is something totally different.

Call it what you will....the outcome is the same -manufacturing not having the energy they need, when they need it-at an affordable price,-Next cab off the rank is transport and primary industry ie food production.. and is down to over reliance on technology that is not up to the task.

[SBD]

That is not "demand management"...that is something totally different.

Call it what you will....the outcome is the same -manufacturing not having the energy they need, when they need it-at an affordable price,-Next cab off the rank is transport and primary industry ie food production.. and is down to over reliance on technology that is not up to the task.

So you are saying that the government or AEMO/regulator asked them to shut down gas consumption due to the capacity of the pipes and producers not being able to meet demand (at any price)?

If the issue is that the gas they want to burn was priced at global market prices instead of a lower domestic price, then moving production to another country and burning Australian gas purchased at the global price is not going to solve anything relating to energy. If the reduced labour cost keeps imported bricks (transported on ships burning oil - we don't have any large sailing freighters any more) competitive with domestic bricks we have bigger problems than the supply of electricity.

[claybro]

[quote=claybro post_id=208267 time=<a href="tel:1671593635">1671593635</a> user_id=5463]
[quote=PeFe post_id=208264 time=<a href="tel:1671589706">1671589706</a> user_id=4203]
That is not "demand management"...that is something totally different.

Call it what you will....the outcome is the same -manufacturing not having the energy they need, when they need it-at an affordable price,-Next cab off the rank is transport and primary industry ie food production.. and is down to over reliance on technology that is not up to the task.
[/quote]

So you are saying that the government or AEMO/regulator asked them to shut down gas consumption due to the capacity of the pipes and producers not being able to meet demand (at any price)?

If the issue is that the gas they want to burn was priced at global market prices instead of a lower domestic price, then moving production to another country and burning Australian gas purchased at the global price is not going to solve anything relating to energy. If the reduced labour cost keeps imported bricks (transported on ships burning oil - we don't have any large sailing freighters any more) competitive with domestic bricks we have bigger problems than the supply of electricity.
[/quote]

I am saying that, there are increasing instances where there is not enough energy being produced, to satisfy all users. This has come about because of policy settings, penalising fossil fuel investment and production, over renewable investment and eventual production. The system is designed this way. The néw government is going to double down on this, and no one should be surprised that 1. Prices will increase, and 2. Supply will become less reliable due to the technology being used. It is happening everywhere in the Western World.

[rev]

Iran, Saudi Arabia have the cheapest petrol in the world.
They are also some of the biggest producers of oil.

Australia is one of the biggest gas producers, but we pay a premium thats ever increasing, while China and Japan enjoy our gas at a lower cost then it does us.

But sure, renewables will fix it all.
Foreign owned renewables.
Cost hasn't come down, its gone up. Despite the countless promises more renewables will bring costs down.

I wonder which party will have the more believable promise to reduce costs at the next election.

[SRW]

I am saying that, there are increasing instances where there is not enough energy being produced, to satisfy all users

I don't think you've demonstrated this. What evidence have you that energy users are worse off now (in supply terms) than the historical average?

[SBD]

Iran, Saudi Arabia have the cheapest petrol in the world.
They are also some of the biggest producers of oil.

Australia is one of the biggest gas producers, but we pay a premium thats ever increasing, while China and Japan enjoy our gas at a lower cost then it does us.

But sure, renewables will fix it all.
Foreign owned renewables.
Cost hasn't come down, its gone up. Despite the countless promises more renewables will bring costs down.

I wonder which party will have the more believable promise to reduce costs at the next election.

"Foreign owned" also means "foreign investment".

"Tilt Renewables is part of Powering Australian Renewables (PowAR) – a partnership between QIC, the Future Fund and AGL Energy Ltd." As far as I can tell, all three partners are Australian. Palisade Investment Partners also appears to be Australian.

Why do you think most wind farms and other renewable energy generators in Australia are owned by foreign investors? What can or should be done to encourage more domestic investment (assuming that would be "good")?

[claybro]

I am saying that, there are increasing instances where there is not enough energy being produced, to satisfy all users

I don't think you've demonstrated this. What evidence have you that energy users are worse off now (in supply terms) than the historical average?

Have already provided 2 specific instances just in 1 industry, there are many more. If you honestly believe that our current power supply and further supply will be adequately met by renewables...good luck to you. The situation worldwide now demonstrates otherwise.. Despite record investment and rollout of renewables, fossil fuel use continues to increase...why is that? Germany and the UK are struggling to maintain power supply, despite massive investment in renewables, all because they are being shut off from Russian gas.-So despite Australians being told we are pariahs for not transitioning fast enough-even the Germans cant make it work-despite thier population being promised by politicians it would..-sound familiar?. And for every coal fired power station we close, China, Asia and Africa build 100, then take our manufacturing.

[SBD]

I am saying that, there are increasing instances where there is not enough energy being produced, to satisfy all users

I don't think you've demonstrated this. What evidence have you that energy users are worse off now (in supply terms) than the historical average?

Have already provided 2 specific instances just in 1 industry, there are many more. If you honestly believe that our current power supply and further supply will be adequately met by renewables...good luck to you. The situation worldwide now demonstrates otherwise.. Despite record investment and rollout of renewables, fossil fuel use continues to increase...why is that? Germany and the UK are struggling to maintain power supply, despite massive investment in renewables, all because they are being shut off from Russian gas.-So despite Australians being told we are pariahs for not transitioning fast enough-even the Germans cant make it work-despite thier population being promised by politicians it would..-sound familiar?. And for every coal fired power station we close, China, Asia and Africa build 100, then take our manufacturing.

You changed the topic from electricity to gas. Commercial consumers clearly need to do some re-engineering or system upgrades to change over from gas to electricity-powered brick kilns.

I tried to find data and landed on https://ourworldindata.org/fossil-fuels which shows coal consumption flattened out around 2007 with the peak at 2014, peak oil around 2019. Gas had a dip in 2020 but rose higher in 2021 so may not have peaked yet.

[claybro]

You changed the topic from electricity to gas.

Electricity is generated by burning gas- in larger proportions...- worldwide. You cannot separate the two issues.