News & Discussion: Trams

[Waewick]

Ah then I stand corrected, as from my memory, the Abbot government specifically did not fund urban rail, only roads. I thought it was the state government that postponed the electrification plan.

It was.

Not according to this:

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/sout ... 6745622546

Or should I state more precisely : The State government postponed the project because the Federal Government broke its promise to provide funding.

Yeah so that article was most likely written by a SA labor staffer.

[rubberman]

Not according to this:

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/sout ... 6745622546

Or should I state more precisely : The State government postponed the project because the Federal Government broke its promise to provide funding.

Yeah so that article was most likely written by a SA labor staffer.

In a Murdoch newspaper?

Which quoted a letter from Warren Truss, the then Deputy PM?

Of course, if you can point to a denial of this from Truss's office, that's different. Over to you. However, the weight of evidence is that the Federal Government stopped the project by withdrawal of funding.

However, if you have evidence contradicting the Adelaide now report, now's the time to explain.

[Waewick]

Yeah so that article was most likely written by a SA labor staffer.

In a Murdoch newspaper?

Which quoted a letter from Warren Truss, the then Deputy PM?

Of course, if you can point to a denial of this from Truss's office, that's different. Over to you. However, the weight of evidence is that the Federal Government stopped the project by withdrawal of funding.

However, if you have evidence contradicting the Adelaide now report, now's the time to explain.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/form ... 864e9f343f

There you go. All I can be bothered with right now.

We delayed, left the door ajar and thethe funds were taken.

It's our own fault.

[rubberman]

Hmm, but that just seems to repeat the assertion that the Feds pulled the money. But presented as if it were somehow the fault of the SA govt that they did...without specifying why. Mow, that's how the Murdoch press does things. But still, it's clear the Feds pulled the plug, no matter how the paper twists it.

[SRW]

But what specifically funded federal transport initiative has been cancelled due to federal funds being cancelled in this or last federal term? From what I can see, the FEDS are begging to hand over the money for some very specific targeted projects, just the states keep phaffing around or playing politics with it.

Gawler rail electrification was cancelled/postponed due to Abbott government withdrawing funding.

That's a small part of the wider problem

Any withdrawal was due to SA not matching the Feds money over a couple of years.

Out of interest what funding got cut due to the qld floods?

I share rubberman's recollection, Coalition withdrew funding after being elected (due to Abbott's no-PT stance) and the state couldn't replace funds and thus postponed the project.

Interestingly, one of the projects which was cut in SA due to the Qld floods budget was the original O-bahn extension proposal (at that time, IIRC, simply priority lanes).

So although we might argue that the state government should have prioritised its limited funds towards the rail electrification over the O-bahn tunnel, in reality we might have had both and sooner if Canberra had maintained its promises to SA. Whether ALP or Coalition, the Feds too often find it easy hang us out to dry.

[claybro]

Federal government funding is subject to being matched by state funding in most large infrastructure projects. If the state government withholds funding (postpones) a project, I would think the FEDS are well within their rights to remove their funding, and give it to a state that actually has a live proposal on the table. I don't see this as the FEDS hanging SA out to dry or breaking a promise.

[rubberman]

Federal government funding is subject to being matched by state funding in most large infrastructure projects. If the state government withholds funding (postpones) a project, I would think the FEDS are well within their rights to remove their funding, and give it to a state that actually has a live proposal on the table. I don't see this as the FEDS hanging SA out to dry or breaking a promise.

Reasonable if true. So, you'd think that the Murdoch press would be all over that if it were true.

If it were true. IF it were true. IF.

Those two newspaper reports clearly state that Federal funding was withdrawn. They don't say that State funding was withdrawn.

The Feds broke a promise.

So, a Federal promise to fund a tram system would not be worth the paper it was written on.

[bits]

Federal government funding is subject to being matched by state funding in most large infrastructure projects.

I don't think that's a rule.
Northern Connector is almost all fed money.
From what I understand the artc which is fed owned will upgrade the track between Adelaide and Tarcoola without state money.
The money allocated depends on who is responsible for that infrastructure and who it will deliver taxes.

[Waewick]

Federal government funding is subject to being matched by state funding in most large infrastructure projects. If the state government withholds funding (postpones) a project, I would think the FEDS are well within their rights to remove their funding, and give it to a state that actually has a live proposal on the table. I don't see this as the FEDS hanging SA out to dry or breaking a promise.

Reasonable if true. So, you'd think that the Murdoch press would be all over that if it were true.

If it were true. IF it were true. IF.

Those two newspaper reports clearly state that Federal funding was withdrawn. They don't say that State funding was withdrawn.

The Feds broke a promise.

So, a Federal promise to fund a tram system would not be worth the paper it was written on.

So this is the orignal post with the link from way back when. viewtopic.php?p=110648#p110648

This is just after the state government broke it's promise and delayed the Gawler line,

Unfortunately the link to the Senate paper discussing how amateur your beloved state government is doesn't work.

The Gawler line was a state promise, which after years of delay the feds put it's money else where, likely to a government who could actually do its job.

I'll try, when I get a pc, to find the Senate paper on the topic.

So on short, a promise is worth it,if you keep your end of the bargin.

You can stop trying to rewrite history now.

[rubberman]

Federal government funding is subject to being matched by state funding in most large infrastructure projects. If the state government withholds funding (postpones) a project, I would think the FEDS are well within their rights to remove their funding, and give it to a state that actually has a live proposal on the table. I don't see this as the FEDS hanging SA out to dry or breaking a promise.

Reasonable if true. So, you'd think that the Murdoch press would be all over that if it were true.

If it were true. IF it were true. IF.

Those two newspaper reports clearly state that Federal funding was withdrawn. They don't say that State funding was withdrawn.

The Feds broke a promise.

So, a Federal promise to fund a tram system would not be worth the paper it was written on.

So this is the orignal post with the link from way back when. viewtopic.php?p=110648#p110648

This is just after the state government broke it's promise and delayed the Gawler line,

Unfortunately the link to the Senate paper discussing how amateur your beloved state government is doesn't work.

The Gawler line was a state promise, which after years of delay the feds put it's money else where, likely to a government who could actually do its job.

I'll try, when I get a pc, to find the Senate paper on the topic.

So on short, a promise is worth it,if you keep your end of the bargin.

You can stop trying to rewrite history now.

Waewick,

90% of all major projects worldwide are delayed for some reason or other. That's 90%.

That's independent of politics. Projects can be delayed legitimately for all sorts of reasons, from weather, contractual, to contractor underperformance, to unforseen ground conditions. It is thus everywhere, and for governments of all persuasions.

So, if a delay is apparently a reason for the Feds to withdraw funding, then 90% of projects are vulnerable.

So, we have a major project delayed. As 90% of projects are at some stage. Fact.

The Federal government cynically removes funding. Fact.

The project has to be stopped. Fact.

Of course, now the State government is in a quandary. There are other major projects that have a promise of Federal funding.

However, if the State government accepts the Federal funding, then, because project delays have a 90% chance of happening, there's a corresponding 90% likelihood that the Feds will again take the funding.

What State government would accept that?

So we have the situation where we have a Federal government cynically offers money for projects, but has no intention whatever of honoring its promises, because it will rip the money away if there's a delay. And there's always delays.

Cynical politics at its worst.

Oh, and please do provide a link to what the Coalition Senators said. I'm up for a laugh. Especially as you seemed to think that the Adelaide now report reporting the Feds betrayal was written by a Labor staffer. (A Labor staffer being allowed to write for the Murdochracy, yeah like anyone could believe that).

Getting back to the point of all this.

Because the tram system proposal is a major project, there's such a huge likelihood that it will be delayed. If the Federal government cannot be trusted in any funding promise, then it will have to wait till the State has sufficient funds of its own.


That leads me to suggest that the only way that could happen is perhaps for the State government to levy a special land tax on properties in the tramline catchments. That extra levy to be repaid to taxpayers if the Feds ever did put in some money. That way, the State government could remind people at each election why they are paying extra tax, without having to actually rely on Canberra keeping promises.

[Waewick]

Ours was delayed due to being a really poor government. Nothing legit about that.

Looking around the country the feds seem really good at funding projects (both labor and liberal) look at this state- all of them are mostly or all federal government projects

Except 1, the silly oban project.

In relation to the articles, where do you think local journos get there information. From MP staffers.its a widely known occurance, I'm a bit suprised someone you don't know or do you only believe things written in newspapers?

[Waewick]

More the point. I can think of 2 cancelled developments. 1 in Vic, due to an idiotic state government and the other due to, oh yeah an idiotic state government.

Can anyone provide an example of another Australian project cancelled by the Feds ?

[SRW]

That the removal of funding was a politically-motivated decision by the Abbott government, and that our state government's management of infrastructure priorities is questionable are not mutually exclusive things. I don't know why you are trying so hard to deny the circumstances of the defunding -- in the defence of whom? Tony Abbott?

I would argue there are fewer examples of Commonwealth project cancellations elsewhere in the federation because it's not as politically convenient. Even in the Qld floods budget re-profiling, SA's O-bahn project was about the only one cancelled while others around the country were simply deferred. That was Labor. Then the Coalition withdrew funding from this project, the car industry, and equivocates on building subs here.

The fact is all states are reliant on federal funds, but we in SA have too few and too predictable electorates in the house to matter (the corollary of a declining national share of population) and so have limited capacity to capture and defend politically-determined funding promises (pretty much any infrastructure). The only reason we recently gained traction against the feds was the dire unpopularity of Abbott and the then potent alternative of Xenophon in the house as well as the Senate.

[rubberman]

More the point. I can think of 2 cancelled developments. 1 in Vic, due to an idiotic state government and the other due to, oh yeah an idiotic state government.

Can anyone provide an example of another Australian project cancelled by the Feds ?

Geez, the Victorian government was idiotic for canning a project that returned 45 cents for every taxpayer dollar spent? Seriously?

I have not seen anything yet that supports an assertion that the SA Government acted wrongly here. The fact is that the Federal funds were withdrawn for the most spurious of reasons, project delay. As I said, 90% of projects are delayed, regardless of the politics, and that is world wide.

As for the newspaper report, it's funny that there's no report even remotely supporting the Federal Government position. Given the Murdoch press support for the Coalition, you'd think that if there was a skerrick of a fact in support of the Feds, you'd imagine it would be shouted from the roof tops. Silence.

PS, the "silly" O bahn was originally a project of the Tonkin Liberal Government. Just saying.

[Norman]

One of the projects cancelled by the feds was the Tonsley Line upgrade.